091: LEARN TO LOVE – with Donald “Butch” Williams, Esq.

091: LEARN TO LOVE – with Donald “Butch” Williams, Esq.

091: LEARN TO LOVE – with Donald “Butch” Williams, Esq.

Moto racer, marathoner, former LDS Bishop, current law practice owner, Harley rider and Las Vegas Rescue Mission volunteer Butch Williams joins the Alph Quorum Show and speaks of the profound lessons taught to him by the mature men in his life. He shares experiences about struggles early in his marriage and how he and his wife partnered up to heal and build a beautiful life together. This humorous, wise, and gentle teacher, a man of pure masculine energy, shares some unforgettable stories, passing along bold and very charming bits of ALPHA wisdom. You’re gonna love this conversation. 🔺

Our guest today was born in Las Vegas on February 2nd. 1966 He’s the youngest of five children. His father worked a variety of jobs when Bush was a kid. His father started the Las Vegas Motocross Club and later the Las Vegas Bicycle Motocross Club. Every Saturday and Sunday, he spent at the motocross and bicycle motocross track with his family organizing and running events.

Butch also raced both BMX and motocross himself. When Butch was about 14 years old. The track was no more feasible to run. His dad started a plumbing company, and Butch began to learn the trade of plumbing, which also worked a variety of other jobs and high school, including being a dishwasher at Marie Calendar’s and driving a delivery truck.

When he was 19 years old, he decided to serve in LDS Mission which had joined the church approximately three years earlier. He served in Alaska and had a wonderful time there. Upon returning home, he attended college at UNLV and then received a Bachelor of Science Degree in Construction Management from Brigham Young University in 1991. While at BYU, he met and married the magnificent Paula Jones from Woodburn, Oregon.

They have six children, five of whom are married. They are the grandparents of ten grandchildren, which attended law school at the MCGEORGE School of Law in Sacramento, California. He graduated in 1994 and returned to Las Vegas with his family in 1997. He started his own law practice. He mostly represents contractors and subcontractors in construction issues. He also practices in the areas of real estate and business law.

Approximately seven years ago, his son in law, Drew Starbuck, graduated law school and came to work with Butch. Mr. Starbucks practices primarily in real estate planning and probate. They own the firm Williams Starbuck.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

00:00:00:10 – 00:00:02:22
Donald “Butch” Williams
Risky move. I’m like the heck you are.

00:00:05:06 – 00:00:05:28
Donald “Butch” Williams
And he did it.

00:00:06:05 – 00:00:18:13
Donald “Butch” Williams
He would walk to my house every night and he would just walk the neighborhood with me every night. He said, how about the plan of going home and learning to love your wife and.

00:00:18:20 – 00:00:22:11
Donald “Butch” Williams
Have her learn to love you? What I garnered from that.

00:00:23:13 – 00:00:27:15
Donald “Butch” Williams
Was this concept of one on one time. He said, Just hold on.

00:00:28:06 – 00:00:31:15
Donald “Butch” Williams
Just hold on. The light will return.

00:00:32:29 – 00:00:35:10
Donald “Butch” Williams
So he turned me in to the Nevada State Bar.

00:00:36:05 – 00:00:39:06
Donald “Butch” Williams
Wrote a letter on me, said, Mr. Williams told me to go.

00:00:39:20 – 00:00:40:16
Donald “Butch” Williams
F myself.

00:00:42:27 – 00:00:47:24
Donald “Butch” Williams
If I need a car. I got a call from bar counsel. Who is this porch? Williams?

00:00:48:15 – 00:00:49:01
Donald “Butch” Williams
Yes, sir.

00:00:49:21 – 00:00:52:01
Donald “Butch” Williams
Did you tell that lawyer to go F himself.

00:00:52:24 – 00:00:53:17
Donald “Butch” Williams
Yes, I did.

00:00:54:13 – 00:00:58:00
Donald “Butch” Williams
Can you not do that anymore? No, I won’t. And I’ve never done it again.

00:01:04:05 – 00:01:23:23
Speaker 3
If you’re a man that controls his own destiny, a man that is always in the pursuit of being better, you are in the right place. You are responsible. You are strong. You are a leader. You are a force for good. Gentlemen. This is the Alpha Corps.

00:01:30:21 – 00:01:56:23
Brad Singletary
Our guest today was born in Las Vegas on February 2nd. 1966 He’s the youngest of five children. His father worked a variety of jobs when Bush was a kid. His father started the Las Vegas Motocross Club and later the Las Vegas Bicycle Motocross Club. Every Saturday and Sunday, he spent at the motocross and bicycle motocross track with his family organizing and running events.

00:01:57:08 – 00:02:19:01
Brad Singletary
Butch also raced both BMX and motocross himself. When Butch was about 14 years old. The track was no more feasible to run. His dad started a plumbing company, and Butch began to learn the trade of plumbing, which also worked a variety of other jobs and high school, including being a dishwasher at Marie Calendar’s and driving a delivery truck.

00:02:19:20 – 00:02:47:14
Brad Singletary
When he was 19 years old, he decided to serve in LDS Mission which had joined the church approximately three years earlier. He served in Alaska and had a wonderful time there. Upon returning home, he attended college at UNLV and then received a Bachelor of Science Degree in Construction Management from Brigham Young University in 1991. While at BYU, he met and married the magnificent Paula Jones from Woodburn, Oregon.

00:02:48:25 – 00:03:18:22
Brad Singletary
They have six children, five of whom are married. They are the grandparents of ten grandchildren, which attended law school at the MCGEORGE School of Law in Sacramento, California. He graduated in 1994 and returned to Las Vegas with his family in 1997. He started his own law practice. He mostly represents contractors and subcontractors in construction issues. He also practices in the areas of real estate and business law.

00:03:19:08 – 00:03:42:19
Brad Singletary
Approximately seven years ago, his son in law, Drew Starbuck, graduated law school and came to work with Butch. Mr. Starbucks practices primarily in real estate planning and probate. They own the firm Williams Starbuck. But I’m so glad to have you here, man. I have been I’ve had my eye on you since I started this whole thing and thought, That’s it, dude, I want to get in here.

00:03:42:19 – 00:04:02:13
Brad Singletary
So we ran around in some of the same circles here, probably ten or 15 years ago, and I’ve moved to the other side of town, and maybe you’ve moved out of that neighborhood, but I’ve watched you with your family and what you have going on. And I just thought this is the exactly the type of man that I want to highlight once we get around to being able to do that.

00:04:02:13 – 00:04:13:29
Brad Singletary
So welcome here, man. I really appreciate you driving all this way. Drove up to my building today and I see this black Corvette and, and I knew exactly who was here.

00:04:14:21 – 00:04:18:06
Donald “Butch” Williams
It’s an old one. It didn’t cost very much or whatever.

00:04:18:06 – 00:04:46:11
Brad Singletary
It’s super sweet. So again, thank you for being here, man. We’re just we’re just trying to help men level themselves up, whether that be through education or through learning how to have be better in their family or through emotional intelligence, you know, recovering from addictions and just being good men. And so anyone who knows you, I’m sure, would safely say that’s a good dude to be highlighting as a good as a good man.

00:04:46:11 – 00:04:48:05
Brad Singletary
So thank you again for being here.

00:04:48:19 – 00:05:05:18
Donald “Butch” Williams
I’m glad to be here. And I surely don’t deserve any praise. But but I life life has been good to me. Challenging but good. And if there’s ever a time to spend on raising young men to me and it’s now, right?

00:05:05:18 – 00:05:23:22
Brad Singletary
Yes, totally. That’s one of the reasons that we feel good about what we’re doing. We have a smaller audience but I think we’ve had listeners from 39 different countries through this whole thing. And so we’re hoping to just continue to grow this and appreciate you being a part of a part of this here today. So talk more about your family.

00:05:23:22 – 00:05:28:23
Brad Singletary
You’ve got ten grandchildren. Are they are most of your kids here in town or they live in other places or.

00:05:29:06 – 00:05:49:10
Donald “Butch” Williams
Yeah, so we’ve got my oldest son, Tyson, and his wife live in the San Diego area. They’re in Carlsbad, California, OK? They’ve got three little kids and yeah, he runs a shelter business down there. And as a couple of other things that he’s involved in, we’re trying to get him back to Las Vegas, but he seems to like that surf too much.

00:05:49:11 – 00:05:57:06
Donald “Butch” Williams
I bet. So I’m sure he Sanford coming home. He won’t be back My daughter, Kayla.

00:05:57:21 – 00:06:17:01
Donald “Butch” Williams
Kayla Starbuck, she’s married to Drew Starbuck, OK? And she’s wonderful. And a matter of fact, when she met Drew when they were in college, he wasn’t sure where he was going. And so she helped him figure out where he was going. And next thing you know, he was in law school and next thing you know, he’s practicing with me.

00:06:17:16 – 00:06:23:04
Donald “Butch” Williams
So never underestimate the power of a magnificent woman, right?

00:06:23:04 – 00:06:24:03
Donald “Butch” Williams
Yeah. You can keep.

00:06:24:04 – 00:06:28:02
Brad Singletary
Your eye on in there. If he’s working with that, you can you can always be watching, right?

00:06:28:02 – 00:06:37:15
Donald “Butch” Williams
All the time. He’s great. He’s he was in the Marines, and so he came in with maturity and just just a good guy. Good, humble guy.

00:06:37:25 – 00:06:39:13
Donald “Butch” Williams
Yeah. Looking for a little girls.

00:06:39:13 – 00:06:45:00
Brad Singletary
I looked him up. I looked up on your website and looked up you and him and saw your pictures and read a little bit about him. It’s impressive.

00:06:45:08 – 00:06:45:29
Donald “Butch” Williams
Yeah, he’s.

00:06:45:29 – 00:07:00:18
Donald “Butch” Williams
He really is that good. We just love him to death. Then I have a son named Zach. Zach’s married, and he just finished law school. He decided not to come to work for Dad, but he’s working for a big firm. I guess it pays more money. I don’t know.

00:07:01:16 – 00:07:02:15
Donald “Butch” Williams
He’s doing well.

00:07:02:16 – 00:07:26:19
Donald “Butch” Williams
And I’ve got a daughter named Hailey. She’s up in Utah. She’s married to Vince Miller. We just love this guy. He graduated with a master’s in accounting, but his love is the army is. Well, his father was next in line to be the chaplain for the United States Army. Wow. And decided he didn’t want to quite go that path.

00:07:26:19 – 00:07:38:08
Donald “Butch” Williams
But Vince has followed his father in the military, and he finished Army Ranger training last year. And just now he’s trying to be a Green Beret. So I.

00:07:38:13 – 00:07:40:03
Donald “Butch” Williams
Now yeah, he’s a he’s a fun.

00:07:40:03 – 00:08:09:27
Donald “Butch” Williams
Kid. Plus, he likes to go fishing. And I like that so I got a place to fish. Hey, yeah. I have a son named Josh. Josh is married here in Las Vegas. He’s working in the construction industry. And finishing his education at U and LV in my last girl or child, I should say, is Alexa. And Alexa just finished flight attendant school for Breeze Airlines, which is, I guess, a subsidiary of some sort to JetBlue.

00:08:10:08 – 00:08:11:19
Donald “Butch” Williams
OK, so maybe we’ll get some.

00:08:11:19 – 00:08:16:21
Donald “Butch” Williams
Free flights out of all of this. I don’t know how many passes like Buddy passes and I like free.

00:08:18:19 – 00:08:23:04
Brad Singletary
So your wife, you said she’s from Oregon. You met her at school. You met in college, right?

00:08:23:04 – 00:08:36:24
Donald “Butch” Williams
Yeah. She’s amazing. She is from a little town called Wood or I should say named Woodburn, Oregon. Her father is a veterinarian. I thought I might be marrying into money. I come to find out he’s a farm vet.

00:08:38:06 – 00:08:40:17
Donald “Butch” Williams
Right. Like I came to further find out.

00:08:41:09 – 00:08:42:29
Donald “Butch” Williams
If it cost more than the price of the.

00:08:42:29 – 00:08:48:19
Donald “Butch” Williams
Cow. They usually just shoot the cow as the oldest of six kids.

00:08:50:05 – 00:08:51:20
Donald “Butch” Williams
She’s just great, you know?

00:08:53:00 – 00:09:06:05
Brad Singletary
So you we talked a little bit about your career. You have a law practice here. You do like construction stuff. That’s a majority of what you’re doing. It is. And then your son in law.

00:09:07:03 – 00:09:07:10
Donald “Butch” Williams
Yeah.

00:09:07:11 – 00:09:08:13
Donald “Butch” Williams
Drew Starbuck, yeah.

00:09:08:14 – 00:09:28:27
Brad Singletary
And then your son in law, Drew. He does some other things, real estate and different types of types of practice there. So you started that three years at three years after you graduated. That’s pretty quick. I, I mean, I don’t know much about the practice of law, but it seems like three years after that’s fast doing your own thing.

00:09:29:03 – 00:09:51:07
Donald “Butch” Williams
It was probably too quick. But, you know, I had worked three different jobs in three years out of law school now. I never got fired but I always just felt like I wasn’t doing what I was supposed to be doing. So I came home one day kind of in a somber mood. And my wife was five months pregnant with our fifth child.

00:09:51:26 – 00:10:09:23
Donald “Butch” Williams
And I said, Honey, I’m just I just don’t know what it is. And she said, well, start your own practice. I said, I don’t have any clients. I said, Maybe one or two. She said, It’ll work out. I said, But you’re five months pregnant. We don’t have health insurance. It’ll work out so the first call I made was to the baby doctor, I’ll never forget.

00:10:09:24 – 00:10:13:03
Donald “Butch” Williams
Call you. Do you accept a payment plan.

00:10:15:14 – 00:10:18:10
Donald “Butch” Williams
And he said, We’ll work it out. So I.

00:10:18:21 – 00:10:35:16
Donald “Butch” Williams
I went to the bank, and in those days I’ll never forget the guy. I believe his name was Larry Woodrum. And he was at Bank West of Nevada, and somebody said, You got to go see Larry. He’ll loan you money. So I walk in and I sit down with this guy, and I’m sure my head was hung down low.

00:10:35:25 – 00:10:50:25
Donald “Butch” Williams
I said, Can I borrow $50,000 to start a law practice? 15 minutes later, I had $50,000 in account. Wow. And all magnificent part of that, as I look back of the story, is that two years later I called him. I said.

00:10:50:25 – 00:10:51:06
Donald “Butch” Williams
Larry.

00:10:51:16 – 00:10:57:01
Donald “Butch” Williams
Can you take your $50,000 back? I never had to use it, and I’m tired of paying interest on it.

00:10:57:13 – 00:10:58:18
Donald “Butch” Williams
Wow. So.

00:10:59:03 – 00:11:04:14
Donald “Butch” Williams
You know, I don’t think people get loans that easy anymore in Las Vegas. But but that’s how it worked out.

00:11:04:14 – 00:11:15:00
Brad Singletary
And it seems like your wife had all the faith in the beginning. She kind of pushed you toward it and said, don’t you worry, like it’ll work out. And you had the courage to make a big leave. That’s that’s impressive.

00:11:15:13 – 00:11:46:17
Donald “Butch” Williams
Yeah. I’ve talked to a lot of young men who wanted to start their own practice, and they have asked me over the years how do you do it? And I would ask them a question, how much do you give to charity every month? And if the response was very little, then I would say, you’re not ready yet. Now, the reason I said that is because when I was going to start my own practice, I was actually racing motorcycles again.

00:11:46:17 – 00:12:04:17
Donald “Butch” Williams
And I was out at the track one night and I was talking to a friend of mine and he asked me a question. He said, How much do you give to charity every month? And I said, I don’t know, 40 or $50. And he told me, You’re not ready to start your own practice. Wow. And I said, Well, how much do you give?

00:12:04:17 – 00:12:23:27
Donald “Butch” Williams
And he told me. I said, Well, that’s my house payment. He said, Yeah. He said, When you learn that concept, you’ll be fine. And so what we did is I actually went home that night and I was kind of mad at my friend. That is being a little judgmental, but we went home that night and I talked to my wife about it.

00:12:23:27 – 00:12:56:02
Donald “Butch” Williams
I said, Honey, I think there’s something to what he’s saying. If we’re going to start this, we get we got to give more and she said, OK, so we did. We immediately started to give more. And, you know, the phone has always ring. So here I and that was 1997 and now we’re in 2022 and even through the recession the phone rang and so every young person that I have given that counsel to whether it be in the practice of law or other business, their phone is ringing.

00:12:56:08 – 00:13:09:06
Brad Singletary
Well what, what is the principle there like? I mean just that you are you have the kind of maturity, you have the kind of, you know, selfless maturity or something. How does that work? What is the math on that?

00:13:10:08 – 00:13:39:02
Donald “Butch” Williams
I don’t think it’s earthly math. Right. You know, my parents, when I when I decided to join the LDS Church and in the end serve a mission, they were OK with me joining the LDS Church. But when I decided to serve a mission that didn’t go over or as well originally as what I thought it might, but they knew I was dedicated because I, I worked and I saved about 12 or $13,000 and this was back in 1984, 1985.

00:13:39:02 – 00:14:03:17
Donald “Butch” Williams
So it’s a lot of hard work and a lot of savings. When I came home from that mission, my money was still in my bank account. I had no idea that they had paid for it. Wow. And I asked my parents what, what did you do, why they said, well, we just decided to pay for it, but now we’re going to give money every month to a charity because we recognize our business had never done so well so you know, those are things stick in your mind, right.

00:14:04:15 – 00:14:04:25
Donald “Butch” Williams
Yeah.

00:14:04:25 – 00:14:27:05
Brad Singletary
That’s great modeling from your parents who didn’t necessarily share the same faith but but respected what you did. And even though they started to show you, you you originally showed them you taught them something that they reinforced you carried that and spread that same message to young professionals out there. That’s what I’m talking about. That’s why you’re here right now, that kind of thing, man.

00:14:27:05 – 00:14:28:29
Brad Singletary
I got goosebumps thinking about this.

00:14:29:15 – 00:14:43:29
Donald “Butch” Williams
And that was pretty powerful. Another thing I did as soon as I made just a little bit of money is I put $1,000 cash in my pocket. In that thousand dollars cash has been there now since 19, I guess 1997. So please don’t mug me.

00:14:44:05 – 00:14:51:25
Donald “Butch” Williams
If I’m black for every black Corvette, that guy’s got money in his pocket. But the concept again, I was a.

00:14:51:25 – 00:15:02:13
Donald “Butch” Williams
Little kid and this guy walked into our house on 560 Saint Louis and downtown Las Vegas. His name was John Vann. Who he was a friend of my father’s. And he pulled out.

00:15:02:13 – 00:15:07:19
Donald “Butch” Williams
This wad of cash was a little kid in a in a lower than middle class income.

00:15:07:19 – 00:15:33:25
Donald “Butch” Williams
I’m looking at that thinking I don’t know what he does, but I’m in, you know. Right. I said John, why do you carry that that money? He said, so I can say no to people if I need to. Now, that stuck with me, too. So as a young lawyer, if somebody walked into my office and to this day, even if they’ve got money if something doesn’t feel right, I know I’ve got enough in my pocket to feed my family for a little while.

00:15:33:28 – 00:15:35:00
Donald “Butch” Williams
Wow. And so that.

00:15:35:00 – 00:15:36:22
Donald “Butch” Williams
Concept, you mean.

00:15:36:22 – 00:15:42:07
Brad Singletary
Carrying $1,000 cash in your pocket, all this your whole your whole life since you were a young, younger man.

00:15:42:07 – 00:15:43:13
Donald “Butch” Williams
Since 1987.

00:15:43:13 – 00:15:45:05
Brad Singletary
Oh my. You have it right now. You have.

00:15:45:05 – 00:15:49:15
Donald “Butch” Williams
Right now. Oh, that’s the coolest. Thing I’ve ever heard. I mean.

00:15:49:20 – 00:16:08:21
Brad Singletary
I can think there’s a lot of reasons for that. Like, I don’t know in the world of like, you know, alcohol, I’m in recovery from alcohol. And I would hear people say things like, you know, they want to just keep one beer in their refrigerator just to prove that they don’t need it. It’s there, but they don’t they don’t need it.

00:16:08:21 – 00:16:17:13
Brad Singletary
They’re kind of flooding themselves with some exposure. And so you got money and you could spend it, you could blow it, but you’re you’re just hanging on to it. That’s kind of cool.

00:16:17:13 – 00:16:32:03
Donald “Butch” Williams
That’s why I can spend it. And if I spend it as soon as like the users, they have just a little bit more. But when I get, you know, so there’s a little fluff there. So if I can somebody needs something, I can buy it right? Or get out of a tight situation or however you want to say it, all of that.

00:16:32:04 – 00:16:35:04
Donald “Butch” Williams
But at the end of the day, there better be a thousand.

00:16:35:21 – 00:16:36:23
Donald “Butch” Williams
So I can say no.

00:16:37:05 – 00:16:42:03
Brad Singletary
I need I’m going to I’m going to steal that trick. No, I got to tell my wife, when I get on the air, open up the safe for me.

00:16:42:03 – 00:16:54:18
Donald “Butch” Williams
We got to get 1000. Just keep it on Venmo. I don’t know how to use Venmo, but my wife sure does. So she knows how to talk to that Amazon guide to ensure comes around a lot. It’s guy I.

00:16:54:18 – 00:16:58:18
Brad Singletary
Thought my wife for a while was having had something going with the UPS driver, you know, like.

00:16:59:07 – 00:17:00:26
Donald “Butch” Williams
All right, I hear you.

00:17:00:29 – 00:17:18:15
Brad Singletary
We didn’t welcome Jimmy Durban. I just want to he’s been on the show before. You guys know him and but he is also another stellar guy. He just wanted to be here tonight. Drove up in a pretty special looking Harley Davidson that was pretty sick man. That was impressive. What do you what are you driving out there?

00:17:19:11 – 00:17:28:10
Jimmy Durbin
It’s a Harley Roadster. Oh, 2019. And it’s full disclosure. And being transparent, it actually belongs to my middle son.

00:17:28:24 – 00:17:31:15
Donald “Butch” Williams
So I can’t take credit for that.

00:17:31:17 – 00:17:35:19
Jimmy Durbin
Mine’s in 94 heritage soft tail OK or of a cruiser bike.

00:17:35:19 – 00:17:37:17
Brad Singletary
You told me how to get somewhere quick and so you.

00:17:37:22 – 00:17:39:15
Jimmy Durbin
Yeah I had to get here fast keep it.

00:17:39:15 – 00:17:40:06
Brad Singletary
Warm for you.

00:17:40:25 – 00:18:08:16
Jimmy Durbin
I think also just to kind of give the audience a feeling when I when I came in and met Butch you could feel the love I could feel the love speak for myself kind face um sharply dressed and then when you read the intro birthday’s February 2nd mine’s a third oh. Very well meant to you and Elvis as well.

00:18:08:16 – 00:18:37:28
Jimmy Durbin
Right. And so I, I’ve appreciated what you said because I think that’s how men can help men is these little nuggets, these things that there’s this wisdom that you gained along your own path and the things that stuck. And so I really appreciated you sharing those two things because that’s that’s what I want to learn from you. Right?

00:18:37:28 – 00:19:13:01
Jimmy Durbin
Is how have you continued to keep your heart upfront? Right. Oftentimes you talk about having a a soft front and a hard back. No concept from Bernie Brown of being vulnerable as a man, being tender, authentic, transparent, and also having a hard back and being a protector and a leader and a fighter and a mentor for these young men that you talked about, for these young lawyers that you talked about, for your family and your your son in law’s.

00:19:13:01 – 00:19:24:19
Jimmy Durbin
And so what else would you say to your younger self as you gain this wisdom now sitting as a 56 year old man in this chair.

00:19:25:04 – 00:19:51:10
Donald “Butch” Williams
You know, I went through something in 1995 that I haven’t shared with a lot of people, but I was just out of law school starting salary was $36,000 a year, wasn’t necessarily horrible in 1995, but I had $65,000 with a student debt. Wow. And I had three children and my marriage fell apart and so I ended up living with my parents.

00:19:53:01 – 00:20:20:22
Donald “Butch” Williams
My wife’s trying to decide you know, is he going to come home? I’m trying to decide what I’m doing, where I’m going. And I remember just laying up at my parents one night staring at the ceiling thinking to myself, I don’t know where I’m going. I just am so discouraged, so down. And this old guy knocks on my door and he happened to be my LDS bishop.

00:20:22:19 – 00:20:38:27
Donald “Butch” Williams
And he said, May I speak with you for a few minutes? I said, Yeah. I mean, I couldn’t say no. He’s a nice guy. Even though I had anger in my soul, I just couldn’t say no to him. And he came in and talked to him and he said, But what are your plans? I said, I don’t know.

00:20:38:27 – 00:21:04:24
Donald “Butch” Williams
I guess I guess I’ll get divorced and figure out what to do from here. He said, I guess that’s a plan. He said, How about the plan of going home and learning to love your wife and have her learn to love you? And I said, I don’t know how that’s possible, but he left that evening and it again, it just stuck in my mind.

00:21:04:24 – 00:21:43:06
Donald “Butch” Williams
So I, I went home and this, this little bishop, about six foot six tall, he would walk over to my house every night after and he had 11 children on a school teacher salary. So big time hero right away he would walk to my house every night and he would just walk the neighborhood with me every night. And he would talk to me from everything about physical intimacy with my wife and how I could improve that to emotional intimacy, to dating, to communication.

00:21:43:17 – 00:22:00:22
Donald “Butch” Williams
The things that I guess I just never learned at home. And I guess why would I have learned them? I mean, my parents had a great relationship, but we didn’t talk about these things. And, you know, my wife and I we always just we always talk about the first five years of our marriage being. We don’t talk about that.

00:22:01:16 – 00:22:20:28
Donald “Butch” Williams
And then we talk about from 1995 on and it’s just been the most magnificent marriage. I mean it’s really, it has been but again what I garnered from that was this concept of one on one time.

00:22:21:28 – 00:22:23:09
Donald “Butch” Williams
Well, you know.

00:22:23:18 – 00:22:36:18
Donald “Butch” Williams
He gave me his precious resource of time and so I try to do the same. I, you know, I’m not great at it, but if I see a need, I recognize just a simple text message, probably not enough.

00:22:37:21 – 00:22:54:17
Brad Singletary
You know, he was kind of in this automatic role of mentorship or stewardship with you. But in. So did he push for that contact, you know, or were you, you know, asking him to, hey, come take a walk or you said he just would show up? Yeah. I mean, that’s cool. So I think every man needs a mentor.

00:22:54:17 – 00:23:31:11
Brad Singletary
Every man needs a bigger tribe of, you know, six, eight, whatever number of people. But to have one person at a critical time in your life care for you. He’s busy. He’s got 11 kids at home and he’s leading the congregation and he’s got you that he’s kind of singled out as someone that’s worthy of his time evening, you know, this special time to come and walk and talk with you that is that’s one of the coolest images that have ever been, you know, painted on this show to me is you walking with a man who’s talking about all of the deep things, all of the things that maybe you wouldn’t want to talk about

00:23:31:11 – 00:23:43:08
Brad Singletary
with anyone else. You made it comfortable somehow. You made it comfortable to do that. What what was it about him that made you feel like you could comfortably talk about those personal subjects?

00:23:43:15 – 00:24:11:08
Donald “Butch” Williams
Yeah, I think just his warmth. I mean, I just felt like I was walking with God in some respects. Right. I knew that he was a confidant. I knew he had wisdom. I mean, even as a I was 28 years old, so still pretty young. Right. But I could just see, you know, just his love for me and I then fast forward what, 20 years?

00:24:11:08 – 00:24:38:15
Donald “Butch” Williams
And he called me to be a bishop in the LDS Church, last thing I ever expected. But the concepts that he taught me I was able to put into play as people would come to me with marital issues and other issues. And I thought, man, God, I mean I that was a really painful process. In 1995 I got to know God better, I got to know my wife better, I got to know this bishop better.

00:24:39:10 – 00:25:03:19
Donald “Butch” Williams
But then as I fast forward, I think to myself and God, God could see these things play out. You know, he could see in the future that if I listen to this guy, good things would probably happen in my life, you know, if I didn’t, if I went out on my own and did my own thing, then I might pay a different price and have a harder time having a relationship with God, at least for a season.

00:25:03:27 – 00:25:06:14
Donald “Butch” Williams
So it was a painful process, but it was wonderful.

00:25:08:06 – 00:25:45:20
Jimmy Durbin
Brad just put out an episode about reframing and in his thoughts just from a very raw, beautiful authentic place of the Alpha Quorum and what that is and what type of man in his heart that is and how it should project in the world so I appreciate you relating that story because I oftentimes think, as you just indicated, we really don’t talk about before 1995, 1996, right.

00:25:45:20 – 00:26:26:04
Jimmy Durbin
We, we get this idea that well we’ve had this pain and it’s healed and so it’s behind us. But in the end as a result of that we kind of create a silo and those individual silos that happen to us as men, then we don’t allow the healing process and the learning process and the grace that happens. And so would you mind just sharing like what the struggle was like, what, how did you get to that mental place, emotional place, spiritual place like because I’m sure I can relate to it.

00:26:26:04 – 00:26:44:17
Jimmy Durbin
I, I’ve been to that place. There might be someone listening who’s there and I kind of believe that we’re all we’ve either gone through, we’re going through, or we will yet go through that place that you were back in. So do you mind sharing that?

00:26:44:21 – 00:27:13:21
Donald “Butch” Williams
No, not at all. One of the things that he asked me to do was go to the church and listen to a talk from a guy named Jeffrey Ah, Holland that was coming to town. Well, I had so much anger and frustration in my life at that time. I think just being poor for so long, going through law school, I mean, when my wife and I were in law school, I had $1,000 a month scholarship or rent was 550 a month.

00:27:14:20 – 00:27:27:26
Donald “Butch” Williams
We paid our tithing. So now we’re down to 900 a month and we never went on welfare. Well, you know, you live that way for a number of years of just, you know, impoverished, if you.

00:27:27:26 – 00:27:28:15
Donald “Butch” Williams
Were making.

00:27:28:15 – 00:27:28:20
Brad Singletary
It.

00:27:28:20 – 00:27:49:00
Donald “Butch” Williams
Barely by me, you know, and we always made it you know, by the grace of God, we always made it. But, you know, there’s frustrations and I’m spending, you know, 12 and 14 hours a day studying and there’s little kids at the house and all those things are, you know, they’re just going to lead to a tough situation if one doesn’t get it squared up.

00:27:49:20 – 00:28:03:10
Donald “Butch” Williams
And I didn’t, I didn’t have it squared up. I felt my job was to work and get through law school and make money as fast as I could. So I took that same attitude into the profession that first, and then I got humbled.

00:28:05:05 – 00:28:06:14
Donald “Butch” Williams
Right. But anyways.

00:28:06:14 – 00:28:24:01
Donald “Butch” Williams
Jeffrey Holland was coming to town and this old guy, Roy Ford, says just come with me, just come with me. I said, I don’t want to go. But again, I didn’t want to say no to him right there. I just loved him. You love somebody. You don’t want to say no. So I remember I remember sitting in the back of the building that night.

00:28:24:01 – 00:28:46:17
Donald “Butch” Williams
And Jeff, our Jeffrey, our Holland stands up at the pulpit. And this is what he says. I’ll never forget it. He says, If any of you are feeling dark tonight like there’s no light and that you might never feel light again, I just want you to do one thing for me tonight. Well, soon as he started down that path, you could imagine my right eye open to what?

00:28:46:17 – 00:29:17:04
Donald “Butch” Williams
All my left eye open to and then his counsel was so simple, but I’ve used it many times in life. He said, Just hold on, just hold on. The light will return. And it did then, and it has numerous times since. So that’s my encouragement to people. When you’re in a dark spot, try to just hold on. You’ll notice that God will put certain people in your life at that time.

00:29:18:07 – 00:29:25:07
Donald “Butch” Williams
Even if they’re uncomfortable to you a little bit. They might be those those angels that.

00:29:25:27 – 00:29:27:10
Jimmy Durbin
Especially if they’re uncomfortable.

00:29:27:10 – 00:29:34:08
Donald “Butch” Williams
To express you. Yes, especially if they are. So, you know. Yeah.

00:29:35:25 – 00:29:56:22
Brad Singletary
You said something earlier about what the guy said to you when you were in. He said, you know, what is your plan? He said, What about the plan to go and learn to love your wife? And that’s an interesting thought about learning to love, because I guess maybe when we’re younger, we just think, you know, you either love someone or you don’t.

00:29:56:22 – 00:30:17:28
Brad Singletary
And but this is like you have to learn how to love. What did that mean to you back then and what were the kinds of things you needed to learn? Like you you obviously were interested in her. You married her. You have a family. You know, you’re she’s a beautiful to this day, a beautiful woman. I mean, but you had to learn how to love what does that mean?

00:30:19:22 – 00:30:48:13
Donald “Butch” Williams
That’s a great question. And maybe a little more background would be helpful. So I met my wife when when I was at BYU, we fell in love immediately was just instant infatuation. And so we got engaged two weeks later and married three months later. Now, it’s public knowledge now, but it but it wasn’t for years. But my wife had had a child when she was in her senior year of high school.

00:30:49:04 – 00:31:12:13
Donald “Butch” Williams
And this was a by the way, she told me about it immediately when we got we’re starting to get serious and of course, as a young guy, I’m like, oh, no problem. Well, she had given the child up for adoption. And back then, adoptions were were very private. Right. So I guess I always felt this little bit of maybe jealousy.

00:31:12:13 – 00:31:40:13
Donald “Butch” Williams
Maybe maybe she didn’t love me as much as she loved her boyfriend. Who she had the child with. So, you know, just inadequacies on my part. Right. And being vulnerable is the right word. But I should add that for many, many years, until we were able to by the grace of God, three years ago, we were able to make contact with this.

00:31:40:17 – 00:31:40:29
Donald “Butch” Williams
Wow.

00:31:41:09 – 00:31:41:17
Donald “Butch” Williams
And.

00:31:42:01 – 00:32:13:08
Donald “Butch” Williams
Oh, he’s just wonderful. It’s everything we ever dreamed of. That’s maybe a story for another day. But anyways, so I just always felt like, you know, kind of second fiddle just, you know, and I realized one thing this bishop did is he said, you know, the first thing we’re going to do is we’re going to fly that guy down from Oregon because he and Paula, your wife, they never had really a chance to to separate.

00:32:14:03 – 00:32:33:01
Donald “Butch” Williams
And then, by the way, there was nothing going on with Paula and her ex boyfriend for for all those years were married, nothing like that at all. But my bishop could tell that there was something holding me and Paula from progressing and one of the it was just a really out of the box thinking, right? Yeah.

00:32:33:03 – 00:32:33:28
Donald “Butch” Williams
We’re going to we’re going to.

00:32:33:28 – 00:32:42:01
Donald “Butch” Williams
Fly down her ex-boyfriend so they can walk up and down the strip and say goodbye to each other because they never got a chance to years ago because Paula’s parents.

00:32:42:01 – 00:32:46:27
Donald “Butch” Williams
Broke them up. Wow. What a risky move. Yeah. I’m like the heck you are.

00:32:49:11 – 00:32:51:12
Donald “Butch” Williams
And he did it. He did it, OK.

00:32:51:20 – 00:33:21:00
Donald “Butch” Williams
And it was wonderful because for some reason, it released my heart and and I was able to say, yeah, she she does love me and everything’s OK. And this guy had gone on and married and has a wonderful family and like I said, just a few years ago, by the grace of God in that app, 24 in me, we were able to finally, after all these years, find this this child and man just awesome.

00:33:21:00 – 00:33:21:12
Donald “Butch” Williams
Wow.

00:33:21:12 – 00:33:22:15
Brad Singletary
That’s super awesome.

00:33:23:26 – 00:33:50:12
Jimmy Durbin
So when Brad asked that question, the way I heard it, the way I heard him ask, that is I choose who I love. And I heard that in your story. And then I love my choice. Right. And so how else in your years of marriage with your sweetheart and under what circumstances and situations have you had to learn to continue to love your choice?

00:33:50:21 – 00:33:52:01
Donald “Butch” Williams
Yeah, it’s great.

00:33:54:01 – 00:34:10:15
Donald “Butch” Williams
One thing my mom said to my wife and I often in our first number of years of marriage is you’re not dating. You got to keep dating. You got to get out of town a couple of days. I’ll watch the kids. But again, in my stubborn self, you know, I just need to work. I need.

00:34:10:20 – 00:34:11:22
Donald “Butch” Williams
To. Right.

00:34:12:23 – 00:34:38:06
Donald “Butch” Williams
Well, you know, after 1995, I took that counsel and so we began to date every Friday night. We don’t miss now I was on a campout or something. We’d go out Saturday night. We then began to take a trip once a year, twice a year for a week away from the kids. But the most important thing, getting back to that old bishop, he said every day do an act of kindness for her every day.

00:34:39:06 – 00:34:46:07
Donald “Butch” Williams
And he said the same thing to her every day, every day, every day. He said every day. So you know how many candy.

00:34:46:07 – 00:34:50:26
Donald “Butch” Williams
Bars I’ve woken up over the years? She still thinks my greatest joy in life.

00:34:50:26 – 00:34:54:02
Donald “Butch” Williams
Is a is a Hershey’s it’s not Hershey’s a CS.

00:34:54:07 – 00:34:55:24
Donald “Butch” Williams
Sucker. It is a.

00:34:55:24 – 00:34:57:03
Donald “Butch” Williams
Second greatest joy life.

00:34:57:03 – 00:35:03:04
Donald “Butch” Williams
But so I found a lot of those. In the meantime, I’m I watched a lot of dishes.

00:35:03:04 – 00:35:12:12
Donald “Butch” Williams
And, you know, just, hey, I’m going to the kitchen. I’m just you want water? Do you want anything? You know, common sense things, right? We love those. We serve. We we know the contents.

00:35:12:12 – 00:35:13:00
Jimmy Durbin
Of little things.

00:35:13:00 – 00:35:18:01
Donald “Butch” Williams
Yeah, but but if we’re not serving someone, we it’s really difficult to love them.

00:35:19:01 – 00:35:42:17
Brad Singletary
I notice you’ve done that so much. I don’t. I don’t. I don’t know if it’s a good place to transition, but you’ve done a lot of service throughout your life. So you talked about the charity thing in the beginning. You know, sharing that with young attorneys. You know, if you’re if you’re not paying anything to charity, you may not be ready to start your own practice that represents an attitude of giving and sacrifice.

00:35:42:28 – 00:36:01:29
Brad Singletary
Talk about some of the other things you’ve done. You mentioned camping trip. Was that like scouting type stuff? You’ve done some you’ve done some volunteer teaching. You’ve done the most recently. I think I’ve seen you do a stuff at a like a homeless shelter maybe, or talk about some service opportunities that you’ve taken advantage of.

00:36:02:10 – 00:36:22:09
Donald “Butch” Williams
Yeah, I’m pretty involved with the Las Vegas rescue mission. You know, I didn’t know anything about the Las Vegas rescue mission. And here I was serving as a bishop in the LDS Church, and somebody called me one day and said, Hey, we’ve got this 18 year old boy here from Colorado. Can you meet with him? Yeah, try to help.

00:36:22:22 – 00:36:43:04
Donald “Butch” Williams
I meet with him and I realize I don’t know what to do. With this boy. You, the way nice kid moved in from Colorado was was not LDS. He just showed up to Vegas wanted to start a new life. So I called my wife. That’s always a good place to start, honey. I got this kid in my office.

00:36:43:04 – 00:36:51:24
Donald “Butch” Williams
I don’t know what to do with him. I mean, what am I going to do? Give him a food order or something? I can’t move them into our house because we’ve got daughters at home still. And she said.

00:36:51:24 – 00:36:52:16
Donald “Butch” Williams
We’ll call.

00:36:53:00 – 00:37:15:15
Donald “Butch” Williams
Heather Gibbons. I said, Oh, I know Heather Gibbons. So I called Heather. And Heather just is well connected in Las Vegas as far as just knowing where the charities are, knowing what resources are available. I said, Heather, can you come see me? She shot right over to my office. She said, OK, but here’s what you do. You take this boy to the Las Vegas rescue mission.

00:37:15:27 – 00:37:39:08
Donald “Butch” Williams
They will put him up for a couple of weeks, no questions asked. They’ll feed him. And during the day, he’s got to leave the premises, go out, try to get a job. Come back at night. I said, Well, I don’t know much about this place, but I like this a lot. So I started to learn about it. And, you know, every night at 5:00 as you may know, they they open their doors and they’ll give anybody a meal, no question asked.

00:37:40:23 – 00:38:15:13
Donald “Butch” Williams
I love that. But I tell you what I love more is that they want to help people with addiction. And somehow, some way, they hope that out of the four and 500 people that they feed one meal a day or two, that a few may come forward and say, I don’t want to fight the addiction anymore. And the first thing they ask for unless something is changed, which I don’t think it has, is they’ll take you in for long term addiction, recovery but you got to give them your phone number.

00:38:16:10 – 00:38:38:01
Donald “Butch” Williams
You got to get rid of your sources. And if you’re not ready to give up the phone, you’re not ready to get help yet. I just fell in love with the organization, so I began to contribute more resources and time to do that organization. There’s many more out there. You know, it’s finding a charitable organization that you connect with shouldn’t be too.

00:38:38:01 – 00:38:39:12
Donald “Butch” Williams
Difficult for most of us.

00:38:39:12 – 00:38:48:29
Brad Singletary
So why do you do it? I mean, why you’re busy. You’ve got a law practice, you’ve got five children and grandchildren. You got, I’m guessing, what, season tickets to the Golden Knights?

00:38:48:29 – 00:38:57:06
Donald “Butch” Williams
I do I mean, there’s a lot of stuff going on that’s part of that. A motorcycle Corvette. You got to got wife. You got everything.

00:38:57:13 – 00:39:03:05
Brad Singletary
Like, what makes you want to go to the Las Vegas rescue or whatever places to serve? What makes you do that?

00:39:04:07 – 00:39:29:06
Donald “Butch” Williams
Yeah, I guess I’ve never thought about it that much. It’s just maybe it’s innate, maybe it’s natural. Or maybe it’s because, I mean, how many people have just stepped out over the years and either lended me a hand or I remember one time we were driving back from Sacramento excuse me, from Las Vegas to Sacramento. The year was 1993.

00:39:30:17 – 00:39:55:23
Donald “Butch” Williams
So picture this. I got my wife, I’ve got two kids in the back in this rag down old Hyundai, and we’re heading up to 95 to go through Reno on Memorial Day to get back to Sacramento, to go to law school. And I break down in the sweltering heat this was before cell phones. I look at Paula and I said, what do we do now?

00:39:56:04 – 00:40:24:06
Donald “Butch” Williams
Pray. Well, we’ll pray. So we prayed right then this guy pulls up behind me and he’s an older fella. So I got out of the car and I met him and he said it looks like you got a problem. I said, I do, I, I blew the timing belt. He said, and I said, why did you stop? He said, I was in my home up in Yerington, Nevada, up the road a number of miles.

00:40:24:24 – 00:40:31:19
Donald “Butch” Williams
And I looked to my wife and I said, hey, we need to go. We need to go right now. She’s like, Where are we going? He says, I don’t know, but we’re going somewhere.

00:40:33:27 – 00:40:50:16
Donald “Butch” Williams
And anyways, to make a long story short, we piled my wife, myself, and those two kids into their car. You know, they could have just taken this to Reno and dumped us at a hotel for the evening, but they didn’t do that. They took us all the way to Sacramento that night.

00:40:50:26 – 00:40:51:09
Donald “Butch” Williams
Wow.

00:40:52:07 – 00:41:11:08
Donald “Butch” Williams
And so you know, when you have people over the years that reach out to you and just help a little bit, it’s just not hard to give back, right? I feel like I hold my. All right. I owe my whole life try in some way to give back for all the blessings I have. I mean, I just I’ve just been blessed.

00:41:11:22 – 00:41:11:29
Donald “Butch” Williams
I mean.

00:41:12:07 – 00:41:45:21
Brad Singletary
That’s why you’re here when I say, you know what? What makes you do it? You said I didn’t even think of it. I mean, you’re sacrificing. I know that you’re donating. You know, money, time, resources, every, you know, volunteering over there. And I’ve also seen you re try to recruit people. So we’re friends on Facebook. And I’ve seen this, so, hey, they need, you know, we need an extra server or two tonight, you know, like you’re arranging these things and you’re not only going there for yourself, but you’re bringing some folks along with you, like that kind of leadership toward something so selfless.

00:41:45:21 – 00:41:50:05
Brad Singletary
I mean, that’s just, you know, coolest kind of man. Yeah.

00:41:50:20 – 00:42:12:27
Donald “Butch” Williams
Well, I like I really like somebody’ll tell me, hey, listen, I’m having problems with my teenage kid. He’s just he or she’s just they’re becoming abstinent or they’re just they’re becoming secluded and they don’t want to help anybody. And they’re back talking. I said, all right, I’ll pick you up at 345. You and the kid so I’ll bring him in the kid to the shelter.

00:42:13:12 – 00:42:29:23
Donald “Butch” Williams
And after a night at the shelter, that kid those eyes are opened up a little bit about about real life. So I think that’s a nice way kind of to give back to you, I guess. Not that I’m, you know, I’m just trying to help a kid. Yeah. Who? Right.

00:42:30:08 – 00:42:39:04
Brad Singletary
Some perspective. He gets to serve. He gets to contribute, but he also takes away something from that, too. Absolutely. And I’m sure you do, too. I’m sure there’s some.

00:42:39:10 – 00:42:40:00
Donald “Butch” Williams
Every time.

00:42:40:07 – 00:42:52:10
Brad Singletary
No gratitude and just some. And I can just picture you’re you’re sitting there, you know, with a prayer in your heart for these people. And, you know, you’re you’re trying to extend love and positive energy while you’re there.

00:42:52:20 – 00:43:13:14
Donald “Butch” Williams
Yeah. Can you imagine just one person out of the 500 saying, tonight, I’m going to start over and all of a sudden they go through their the program over there and then they go get educated or get into a profession. And ten years down the road, they’re taking people to the rescue mission to get help. Right. That’s the that’s the payback, right?

00:43:13:14 – 00:43:14:09
Donald “Butch” Williams
Yeah. Pay it forward.

00:43:14:09 – 00:43:15:10
Donald “Butch” Williams
Yeah. You pay for it.

00:43:15:11 – 00:43:15:23
Donald “Butch” Williams
Yes.

00:43:16:02 – 00:43:36:28
Brad Singletary
So how did you learn to be a man? You’ve got all these great qualities. I just I really think that there are some men out there and you you guys seem you who are listening. You know what I’m talking about? You just see people in every aspect of their life just seems seriously good. No one’s perfect, but you can just tell that they are bringing a lot to the table.

00:43:36:28 – 00:43:39:28
Brad Singletary
And I think you do that. But who taught you how to be a man?

00:43:40:28 – 00:43:44:17
Donald “Butch” Williams
Yeah, I don’t know. I think I’m still learning. That’s why they always had me work.

00:43:44:17 – 00:43:46:01
Donald “Butch” Williams
With the youth, because I’m still a kid.

00:43:46:01 – 00:43:48:17
Donald “Butch” Williams
My wife tells me I’m a kid. I don’t really understand it.

00:43:48:22 – 00:43:49:22
Donald “Butch” Williams
She said she raised.

00:43:50:01 – 00:43:51:11
Donald “Butch” Williams
Seven kids, but I’m only.

00:43:51:11 – 00:43:52:08
Donald “Butch” Williams
Counting six.

00:43:53:04 – 00:44:02:26
Donald “Butch” Williams
So I don’t know. You know, I really do still feel like I’m learning. I do. I mean, I was listening to a grade. I like Joel Osteen. Oh, yeah. People don’t, you know.

00:44:02:26 – 00:44:05:10
Donald “Butch” Williams
But I like him a lot. I like him, man. You know.

00:44:05:10 – 00:44:33:07
Donald “Butch” Williams
He’s positive and just I was just listening to one of his talks the other day about learning like I never get too old that learn. So he went on for 35 minutes about things we can do to learn you know, he said that every year most people spend 300 hours in an automobile. He said, do you realize in 300 hours how much you can learn if you listen to it, talk or listen to something to.

00:44:33:07 – 00:44:34:21
Brad Singletary
Make your video book or something.

00:44:34:21 – 00:44:35:24
Donald “Butch” Williams
To teach us if you’re.

00:44:35:24 – 00:44:53:15
Donald “Butch” Williams
Into sales, how to become a better salesperson and if you’re a lawyer, how to be a writer, you can go on and on, you know, if you’re working in the church as a pastor or whatever. But the concept was, don’t ever quit learning. And so I think I’m still working on this being a man thing. I still like a little bit of risk.

00:44:53:15 – 00:45:15:12
Donald “Butch” Williams
I still like a joke a lot. Sometimes it go over well, sometimes I don’t. But I think it started out with my dad. You know, my dad, he was he’s a big time hero to me. He was raised here in Las Vegas in I guess he was born in 1937 and so other four or 5000 people in Las Vegas then.

00:45:16:08 – 00:45:35:19
Donald “Butch” Williams
And he comes from a pretty troubled background. He was in and out of facilities and he fell in love with my mom when he’s about 14 or 15 years old. But my mom came from a good background and my grandpa had enough of my dad. So my grandpa had the sheriff take my dad on the edge of Las Vegas and say don’t come back.

00:45:36:10 – 00:45:37:25
Donald “Butch” Williams
So my dad.

00:45:38:02 – 00:46:00:06
Donald “Butch” Williams
So my dad ends up working in orange farms in Visalia, California, and then he went to San Francisco. In the meantime, my mom had been married, had a child, and my dad got word that she was going through a divorce. So he hauled back to Vegas and he saw her at one of these like little happy days diners in the fifties.

00:46:00:06 – 00:46:23:12
Donald “Butch” Williams
Right. And he her nickname was Shorty. He said, Shorty, you know, we’ve been apart a long time. Don’t you think we should just get married now? And she said, yes. And he became a man. He became a man. And I never saw my parents fight. They never made much money, but they always worked together. They did everything together.

00:46:23:21 – 00:46:41:06
Donald “Butch” Williams
They were just buddies. And, you know, some of his techniques were kind of fun. Like he told us one time, us boys, I don’t think I’m going to ask you again to make your beds he never got angry. Well, we didn’t make our bed. The next day, our beds were on top. The roof.

00:46:42:18 – 00:46:42:29
Donald “Butch” Williams
There was all.

00:46:42:29 – 00:46:46:09
Donald “Butch” Williams
Kinds of things on top there. If I’m 56 St.Louis bicycle.

00:46:46:09 – 00:46:54:19
Donald “Butch” Williams
Parts shoes, it didn’t get put away. A bed sits on the roof, but he never got angry.

00:46:55:14 – 00:47:07:24
Donald “Butch” Williams
He anger was not in his makeup, so he would discipline, but never with anger. Oh, my gosh. That sounds like Christ to me. I’m a teacher better way, but I’m not going to get angry. Angry about it.

00:47:08:27 – 00:47:12:16
Donald “Butch” Williams
I love that. Yeah, I’m going to try that. Yeah. No.

00:47:13:22 – 00:47:16:27
Brad Singletary
I’ll have the h.o.h. Getting after me. Like, what is all that stuff.

00:47:16:27 – 00:47:24:15
Donald “Butch” Williams
On your roof? Well, they got tile roofs now, and so i’m not sure how that would go. We had our rocks on our roof. What makes.

00:47:24:15 – 00:47:25:28
Jimmy Durbin
You think it won’t be your stuff on the.

00:47:26:04 – 00:47:26:18
Donald “Butch” Williams
Shelf?

00:47:28:24 – 00:47:32:08
Donald “Butch” Williams
I’d be careful with that one. Right. There might be.

00:47:32:24 – 00:47:51:08
Brad Singletary
So your dad was a great example of that. You said he became a man. That’s a process. That’s a like, you know, that’s it’s not just we don’t age into it. Something has to happen to us. I think. I mean, so what what did you what else did you see from him or other men in your life that demonstrated how you become a man?

00:47:52:01 – 00:47:52:19
Donald “Butch” Williams
Yeah, I think a.

00:47:52:19 – 00:48:13:08
Donald “Butch” Williams
Lot of hard work and that was one thing is that he he had a tremendous work ethic and and, you know, that concept of like, attract like. Right. It’s just it’s a beautiful, eternal concept. Usually you’re going to attract people that are like you in some ways. Otherwise you just you just bounce off each other, right? And so I got to watch his friends too.

00:48:13:08 – 00:48:41:25
Donald “Butch” Williams
And all of them were just young, trying different businesses, you know, staying out of trouble. My mom and dad both knew they were alcoholics and one day my dad missed work. So he was very functional. But one day he missed work and he never drank again. That was it. And I thought to myself, here’s a guy that comes from nothing that has every excuse in the world because he was abused as a kid.

00:48:41:25 – 00:49:07:20
Donald “Butch” Williams
All these things to not be a man. And he decided he’s going to be a man. He’s going to be a good husband and a good father, and he’s going to work hard and be loyal. And he was all of those things he never had to say. And I watched it right. You know, when we’d go work at the track as a nine year old and an eight year old kid on a Saturday morning, pulling out of bed at four in the morning to get in the back of the truck, to ride.

00:49:07:28 – 00:49:08:23
Donald “Butch” Williams
To to go.

00:49:08:23 – 00:49:17:29
Donald “Butch” Williams
Under the Charleston underpass and on to the I-15, out to Craig Road in the back of the truck. When it’s cold in the winter and hot in the summer. He didn’t have to say anything. It’s just we’re.

00:49:17:29 – 00:49:20:17
Donald “Butch” Williams
Going to work. Let’s go. Right.

00:49:21:05 – 00:49:45:27
Donald “Butch” Williams
So I’m just blessed. Blessed to have people like that in my life all the way through. My first my first boss coming out of law school, a guy named Norm Kurtzman. Wonderful. Wonderful man, fought in World War Two. He was a boxer he was so ethical. And I remember asking him one day, hey, how many billable hours do you want from me?

00:49:46:03 – 00:49:46:12
Donald “Butch” Williams
Right.

00:49:46:12 – 00:49:49:06
Donald “Butch” Williams
Lawyers, billable hours. Well, he was a little bit.

00:49:49:06 – 00:49:54:24
Donald “Butch” Williams
Cross-Eyed and he was cantankerous. And so he’s kind of looking at me, but he’s looking over there.

00:49:54:24 – 00:50:00:26
Donald “Butch” Williams
You know, we’ve had these conversations before right I was scared of him. He says.

00:50:00:26 – 00:50:20:07
Donald “Butch” Williams
Don’t you ever talk to me about billable hours. One day in my life. You give me your hours every week. And then I’m going to give the client the fair hours. Clients are not paying for your education. So you go on and you work and you learn to do the product right incorrectly. Don’t you worry about billable hours.

00:50:21:04 – 00:50:33:21
Donald “Butch” Williams
Yes, sir. Well, again, that concept concept sunk in and so when I hired my son in law and we had the same conversation about how many billable hours a week, because that’s what.

00:50:33:21 – 00:50:35:03
Donald “Butch” Williams
The law firms are telling the.

00:50:35:21 – 00:50:37:04
Donald “Butch” Williams
Well, yeah, I said, don’t.

00:50:37:04 – 00:50:49:16
Donald “Butch” Williams
You ever talk to me about those billable hours. You give your hours to me. And then I would look at the hours. Why did it take so many hours to do that project? I’m dying over here. But after a.

00:50:49:16 – 00:50:57:22
Donald “Butch” Williams
Few years, they get efficient and then they can keep their billable hours and it doesn’t matter. Right. But what a pure concept. Yes. That’s also ethical, right? Yeah.

00:50:58:07 – 00:51:19:11
Jimmy Durbin
So it’s nice to see that that those things weren’t lost on you, that you have paid it forward. That it allows you to be the man that you are and have the heart that you have and and be transparent and share this vulnerable story about the struggle you had in 95 with your wife and that all those things added up.

00:51:20:25 – 00:51:23:25
Jimmy Durbin
So thank you for that. Appreciate it.

00:51:24:13 – 00:51:45:29
Donald “Butch” Williams
Yeah, no, it’s wonderful. But like I say, you asked the question, well, you know, becoming a man and and I answered it. I was kind of serious that I’m still becoming a man. So I got COVID in December of 20, 20. And it wasn’t the nice version about day 12. I said, I don’t know if I’m going to make it through this or not.

00:51:46:06 – 00:51:51:13
Donald “Butch” Williams
I never went to the hospital, but my oxygen kept getting closer to that 90. Right. That 90.

00:51:51:13 – 00:51:51:25
Donald “Butch” Williams
Mark.

00:51:52:20 – 00:52:10:25
Donald “Butch” Williams
And I was so miserable. Anyways, I did overcome it. And by the grace of God, I guess I got to stay on earth for a while. Longer, but a couple months after that, I began to have what you professionals refer to, and I didn’t know what they were then. Ruminating thoughts.

00:52:11:10 – 00:52:12:01
Brad Singletary
Rumination.

00:52:12:01 – 00:52:33:24
Donald “Butch” Williams
You’re you’re going to lose everything you everything you’ve worked for, you’re going to lose. You’re going to lose it. And they would not all of a sudden I was up all night sweating, heart palpitations. My wife has suffered from some anxiety and depression in her life. And one day I woke up again. This was only a year ago now and everything was dark.

00:52:34:16 – 00:52:49:26
Donald “Butch” Williams
For the first time in my life, I I’ve always been an optimist other than the 1995 heartache I’ve just been this optimist. You know, everything is going to be OK for everybody else, including myself. And then it hit me. Depression and anxiety.

00:52:50:05 – 00:52:50:27
Donald “Butch” Williams
Wow.

00:52:50:27 – 00:53:14:23
Donald “Butch” Williams
And so we got me into counseling and because she said, OK, that’s it, we’re done messing with it again. Power over. Good woman. We’re done with this. You’re going to be OK. But you have to you got to listen to me. I’ll listen to you, honey, because right now I feel so low. And she said, OK, so she got me into counseling, and that was helping and but it wasn’t enough.

00:53:15:17 – 00:53:38:29
Donald “Butch” Williams
And so finally she got me into a psychiatrist and they put me on Lexapro, and it took about two weeks. And all of a sudden, things started to clear up. And I was like, OK, my gosh, I feel OK. Again, this is I mean, I was just so grateful. So I been open about it. I have not.

00:53:38:29 – 00:53:39:28
Brad Singletary
That is great.

00:53:40:04 – 00:53:47:19
Donald “Butch” Williams
And just telling people this, you can turn this around. Sometimes we can’t, right? Sometimes.

00:53:47:19 – 00:53:59:01
Brad Singletary
Well, but so that’s good to know because I didn’t know that. But I think I might have known that you had COVID, but you were you were just been the epitome of energy. You’ve been one of those guys. I mean, you’re a runner right? You’re still running.

00:53:59:01 – 00:53:59:28
Donald “Butch” Williams
I am still running.

00:53:59:28 – 00:54:05:08
Brad Singletary
You’re a runner. I mean, you’ve done like marathons and. Right. You’ve done all that. You’re like a real runner.

00:54:06:05 – 00:54:12:28
Donald “Butch” Williams
I’m serious. Like, I’m like me and if I run, I’ve got to go to the bathroom, you know, if somebody is chasing me. Yes. Yes.

00:54:13:26 – 00:54:18:12
Brad Singletary
So you so health and energy and that kind of thing. But to talk about.

00:54:18:18 – 00:54:18:27
Donald “Butch” Williams
Total.

00:54:18:28 – 00:54:27:28
Brad Singletary
Crashing after this COVID thing, having some thoughts that maybe seem to be out of control, get help. Listen to your wife, start counseling and medication and. Yeah.

00:54:29:02 – 00:54:31:05
Donald “Butch” Williams
That’s why you’re here. Well, she told me, she.

00:54:31:05 – 00:54:42:23
Donald “Butch” Williams
Said, but you never do medication without counseling, ever. Well, how would I have known something like that? Other than that, she’d been down the path. I’m like, OK, I’m listening to you. I’m all ears.

00:54:42:23 – 00:54:58:20
Brad Singletary
Was there any was there any hesitation or I mean, were you it was just that bad that you would do anything bad? What about a year ago? What about in the past? Would you have been the type to I mean, I think it’s clearly that you’re pretty humble, but you also have you got a smart aleck in there.

00:54:58:20 – 00:55:13:28
Brad Singletary
You know, you’ve got you got some you got you have a rowdy sense about you, too, you know? So, like, did that ever have would you always have been OK with that or is there some old school part of you is like, I don’t need that you had to fight through.

00:55:14:14 – 00:55:47:20
Donald “Butch” Williams
You know, not at all. And I don’t say that with any false sense of humility, but it was so miserable. I always thought I understood kind of what depression was or anxiety was because I’ve read about it, lived with it, saw other family members with it, but I didn’t understand it until it hit and I wouldn’t wish it upon anybody except for the lessons learned blessings come from it.

00:55:47:28 – 00:56:14:06
Donald “Butch” Williams
And one of the blessings is through counseling. I learned, you know, how to meditate more, how to get myself more in the present. I mean, I just remember going to dinner and looking at my cell phone 25 times thinking there’s an important email that’s going to come or an important text message. And now I go to dinner and I put my phone to the side and I look at my wife’s hair or I say, I can stay totally in this conversation now without thinking of anything else.

00:56:14:06 – 00:56:37:24
Donald “Butch” Williams
But being sitting right here with two wonderful men in the city of Henderson, Nevada, with lights on and air conditioning blowing, counting my blessings and I could never do that before, even though I always felt like I was kind of a humble guy. I could never stay completely present and so I remember talking to the counselor a while back.

00:56:37:24 – 00:56:49:00
Donald “Butch” Williams
He said, What do you worry about? I said, I don’t ever want to feel like I felt a year ago any good counselor just like yourself, Brad. He said, But would you be open to it?

00:56:51:02 – 00:57:07:00
Donald “Butch” Williams
I said, I guess I would be, because right now I’m going to live in the moment. I’m going to live right now. I’m going to consider the lease of the field. I’m not going to take a purse or scrape with me anymore. Yes, I’ll save for the future. Yes, I’ll still plan for the, you know, the things that I can control.

00:57:09:17 – 00:57:10:23
Donald “Butch” Williams
But I’m going to live today.

00:57:11:26 – 00:57:23:22
Brad Singletary
That’s another one of those things that I’ve just been so impressed with, as I’ve kind of just watched you from a distance here the last few years. I mean, you see things like, you know, you’re dancing that at the hockey games.

00:57:24:15 – 00:57:25:13
Donald “Butch” Williams
Like a fool.

00:57:25:25 – 00:57:27:26
Brad Singletary
And when I say like a fool, I mean, there is.

00:57:27:26 – 00:57:30:10
Donald “Butch” Williams
Nothing foolish about it. That’s a man who’s alive.

00:57:30:28 – 00:57:34:29
Brad Singletary
You’re not afraid of what you look like. You don’t have much rhythm. Why are you kind of that’s pretty.

00:57:34:29 – 00:57:38:04
Donald “Butch” Williams
Good, you know, rhythm. But that’s not the point you’re feeling.

00:57:38:04 – 00:57:47:11
Brad Singletary
The music, you’re feeling the environment or or there’ll be these like, I forget what you call them, but these are little like, you know, donuts with the granddaughters day or whatever.

00:57:47:11 – 00:57:49:12
Donald “Butch” Williams
And that’s every Friday. Every Friday.

00:57:49:12 – 00:57:53:24
Brad Singletary
OK, so you got some little rituals where the grandkids come over for mourning or what happened?

00:57:53:24 – 00:57:58:16
Donald “Butch” Williams
No, no, no. I get up, I get my exercise in. I hit the donut shop and then I show up at their house.

00:57:58:17 – 00:57:59:16
Donald “Butch” Williams
You go to their house, I.

00:57:59:16 – 00:58:00:07
Donald “Butch” Williams
Go to their house.

00:58:00:23 – 00:58:01:18
Brad Singletary
Like, here’s some.

00:58:01:23 – 00:58:04:09
Donald “Butch” Williams
Here’s some big old fries. You go.

00:58:04:09 – 00:58:11:17
Donald “Butch” Williams
Yeah, that’s right. Yes. And then we we actually send donuts to the ones that live in California because we can’t be there. Right, all the time having delivered there.

00:58:11:17 – 00:58:14:27
Donald “Butch” Williams
So we haven’t delivered. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s a pretty.

00:58:14:27 – 00:58:18:04
Donald “Butch” Williams
Cheap way to say, Hey, Grandpa and Grandma, I was thinking about you, right?

00:58:18:20 – 00:58:20:18
Donald “Butch” Williams
I guess so. Yeah. No, we have a good time.

00:58:20:27 – 00:58:41:11
Donald “Butch” Williams
You know, I think ever since I was young, I think it was my dad, too, probably. But trying to make somebody smile, right? You know? I mean, it matters. Maybe that’s the only time they’re going to smile the whole day. Maybe for a week. It’s the only little bit of joy they’ve had. You just never know what is going on in somebody else’s life.

00:58:41:11 – 00:58:51:10
Donald “Butch” Williams
And so I think that’s kind of an innate gift. I really do. Right? You know, maybe sometimes it’s not a gift at all. Sometimes it goes too far. And I got to answer to the boss, if you know what I mean.

00:58:51:25 – 00:58:57:25
Donald “Butch” Williams
I’m not talking to God. I’m talking to the other boss. My eternal boss. So sometimes I go.

00:58:57:25 – 00:59:00:08
Donald “Butch” Williams
Too far and I kind of back it off a little.

00:59:00:21 – 00:59:05:12
Donald “Butch” Williams
Bit. But it’s OK. She’s she’s learned she’s had.

00:59:05:12 – 00:59:06:08
Brad Singletary
To learn how to love.

00:59:06:08 – 00:59:07:21
Donald “Butch” Williams
You, too. Oh, yeah.

00:59:08:08 – 00:59:09:07
Jimmy Durbin
Yeah. That part of you.

00:59:09:17 – 00:59:10:12
Donald “Butch” Williams
Yeah, right. Yeah.

00:59:10:12 – 00:59:52:18
Jimmy Durbin
Grab nice and talk about you know, today I call myself Jimmy but for 42 years prior to that, it was Jim. And then when I got into recovery realizing the individual, the part of me that crosses the line, that pushes it too far is my ego, is my pride, and it’s being driven because of maybe that my feeling or I’m feeling insecure insignificant or that I don’t matter, I did something wrong or I’m not in control.

00:59:53:23 – 01:00:13:20
Jimmy Durbin
And so I’m trying to my ego’s trying to make up. Jim’s trying to drive the car, so to speak. And I’m just curious as to what you’ve noticed, because I think that’s the other thing about being a man is being able to talk about our weaknesses, about being able to kind of own that piece of it so that we can then apologize, like you said.

01:00:13:20 – 01:00:32:00
Jimmy Durbin
And, and of course. Correct, right. In that part of awareness and being mindfulness. And so how does that show up in your life? How does that manifest when when that ego, when that pride kind of kicks in? And what’s your process for OK, being aware of that and then of course, correcting.

01:00:32:11 – 01:00:32:26
Donald “Butch” Williams
Yeah.

01:00:33:28 – 01:00:58:21
Donald “Butch” Williams
In in my business, right. A lawyer, there’s just so much of that and I’m guilty of it as the next person. But I think the man upstairs has been kind to me in that I usually know when I go too far. I remember I remember years ago I had a case with this guy and it was just getting more and more contentious, more and more contentious.

01:00:59:15 – 01:01:05:18
Donald “Butch” Williams
And finally I said something I shouldn’t have said. So he turned me into the Nevada State Bar.

01:01:05:18 – 01:01:07:02
Donald “Butch” Williams
And wrote a letter.

01:01:07:02 – 01:01:10:24
Donald “Butch” Williams
On me, said, Mr. Williams told me to go f myself.

01:01:13:07 – 01:01:21:13
Donald “Butch” Williams
So I made a call. I got a call from bar counsel. Is this puts Williams? Yes, sir. Now, when bar counsel calls you, you’re.

01:01:21:13 – 01:01:21:27
Donald “Butch” Williams
Shaking.

01:01:22:02 – 01:01:26:04
Donald “Butch” Williams
Right did you tell that lawyer to go F himself?

01:01:26:25 – 01:01:27:21
Donald “Butch” Williams
Yes, I did.

01:01:28:17 – 01:01:35:11
Donald “Butch” Williams
Can you not do that anymore? No, I won’t. And I’ve never done it again. But things have heated up over the years.

01:01:35:11 – 01:02:03:13
Donald “Butch” Williams
Another situation that I had with a lawyer that I just love and respect, but it just, you know, our clients are going at it so heavy. And so we start sometimes take upon ourselves the personality of our clients, and it just went too far. And so I just thought about it. After a contentious conversation, shut my door, got on my knees in my office, prayed to God that, you know, hey, listen, we’re only fighting about money here or something, right?

01:02:03:13 – 01:02:25:27
Donald “Butch” Williams
In the big scheme of things. And the impression was send him a cookie basket to his firm right now. So I asked Robin, my assistant, would you send a cookie basket over there? And that healed it just like that one cookie basket. And we were healed and we were fine. We’ve had probably 40 cases with our respective firms over the years, and they’ve all resolved, you know, in a friendly fashion.

01:02:25:29 – 01:02:46:05
Donald “Butch” Williams
So I think just like you said, we all all of us have egos and they’re going to come through sometimes. And if we just have certain rituals in our lives and things we can we can keep some humility, right? It’s not always going to happen, but we know when it’s gone too far. We know when the red flag comes up, right?

01:02:46:14 – 01:03:05:24
Jimmy Durbin
Yeah. And like, I appreciate that word, ritual finding a series of actions that I can take every day regardless of how I feel. And I to me, that plugs into why you do the service and why you pay for it and why you talk to these men. It’s just having this ritual to keep the ego in check.

01:03:06:14 – 01:03:35:24
Donald “Butch” Williams
Yeah. And everybody has their own way. I mean, I get up every morning and I’ll read scriptures for 20, 30 minutes and then I’ll exercise and then I’ll get going for the day. And if someone says, well you have to be up at 430 tomorrow, then I guess I get it. I’m getting a bit 3:00 because I’m concerned about ever changing that that, that thing, if you will, for lack of a better word, that I feel has carried me in life.

01:03:35:29 – 01:03:44:12
Donald “Butch” Williams
You know, academically I really, really struggled in high school I graduated deal with Las Vegas High School with a 2.2 GPA.

01:03:44:28 – 01:03:46:14
Donald “Butch” Williams
So I never thought this guy.

01:03:46:14 – 01:04:03:28
Donald “Butch” Williams
Was going to college. Right. It was I just, you know, I just couldn’t sit in a room without and focus on an academic things very well. And then I went on that mission well, when I was on that mission, they had this little prize you would get if you memorized a hundred scriptures.

01:04:04:15 – 01:04:06:09
Donald “Butch” Williams
Well, I really had to work hard at that.

01:04:06:25 – 01:04:20:23
Donald “Butch” Williams
But I did it took me six months or something, but I memorized every one of them. Well, again, you’re in your younger years, right? And you’re thinking maybe I could go to college but when I came home, by the grace of.

01:04:20:23 – 01:04:28:06
Donald “Butch” Williams
God, you and Elvie would let anybody and even me. It was a long time ago. It’s not that way anymore. I’m sure but they let me.

01:04:28:06 – 01:04:29:05
Brad Singletary
I’ve been a fan for.

01:04:29:05 – 01:04:31:10
Donald “Butch” Williams
Life ever since. Oh, you bet I am.

01:04:31:27 – 01:04:53:00
Donald “Butch” Williams
So I signed up for college again. Never thought. And none of my family member had ever got family members had ever gone to college that all of a sudden I said, Hey, listen, it’s taking you three and four times to understand complicated concepts when the guy next to you gets it. The first time I recognized that very early in my life.

01:04:54:05 – 01:05:15:28
Donald “Butch” Williams
So I said, you better learn persistence so I’ve made my mind up very early. You might beat me, you might beat me in the courtroom, you might beat me in a debate. But I’m going to work harder because I know I have to work two or three times harder than you to be able to stay with you in this arena.

01:05:16:21 – 01:05:32:18
Donald “Butch” Williams
And so I think, again, by the gift of God, you learn your weaknesses. If you if you ask them and if you spend some time at them and then you just work through them, just you know, if brains, natural brains is not your not your thing, well then persistence better be.

01:05:33:23 – 01:05:55:27
Brad Singletary
And that’s so great. You’re just the openness to like, OK, I may have this deficiency in some area, but I still want and deserve and believe that I can reach these other accomplishments. I just have to work harder. I mean, that is one of those traits that’s that’s some of the, you know, traditional masculinity that seems to be missing today is just, oh, OK.

01:05:56:04 – 01:06:15:01
Brad Singletary
Well, guess it means I need to work hard. I guess I need to push harder and I can do this. I just have to it’s going to require more from me and I love that you that you’re saying this right now. Like, OK, I, you know, didn’t even do well in high school. Now you’re an attorney, now you’re balling.

01:06:15:01 – 01:06:29:07
Brad Singletary
Now because of hard work and persistence and that discipline. So you’re talking about a little bit of a morning ritual. You have some you talked about reading scripture exercise. Is that running pretty much mostly or.

01:06:29:07 – 01:06:47:25
Donald “Butch” Williams
I’ll run four or five days a week and go to the gym and lift weights a couple of days a week. Just something to get the blood flow right. It’s getting harder as you get older, but I don’t miss very often. Even this morning before church, I walked six miles. I just I just need to be out breathing air and thinking and focusing.

01:06:47:25 – 01:07:00:05
Donald “Butch” Williams
I usually listen to a talk or something positive or listen to good music. Nothing too crazy on the you know, I might be the only person in the gym that’s listening to a, you know.

01:07:00:05 – 01:07:06:17
Donald “Butch” Williams
A spiritual, spiritual thought or spiritual music. Because I’m trying to get my spirit.

01:07:06:17 – 01:07:08:21
Donald “Butch” Williams
Tuned up before the world takes.

01:07:08:21 – 01:07:10:28
Donald “Butch” Williams
Over at about 8:00 because the.

01:07:10:28 – 01:07:12:06
Donald “Butch” Williams
World’s coming right.

01:07:12:06 – 01:07:12:22
Donald “Butch” Williams
Every day.

01:07:13:10 – 01:07:30:27
Donald “Butch” Williams
And so I’m just trying to tune upright, and some people don’t have to do that. Mike, my wife, is a very simple faith. I wish I could be more like her. Like her faith in her hope is just so she doesn’t need an hour to do that every day. Well, guess what I do or my ego will take over.

01:07:31:16 – 01:07:33:14
Donald “Butch” Williams
So I just have to know where you are right now.

01:07:33:16 – 01:07:34:28
Jimmy Durbin
Great awareness. Yeah.

01:07:35:16 – 01:07:55:07
Brad Singletary
I have a couple more questions for you, but one is what major error do you see men making? You’ve been around a lot of guys. You’ve been around a lot of people professionally as a leader. And you talk about as a as a bishop. I know you’ve done some things with the young people in your church. You’ve had like lots of opportunities to serve.

01:07:55:07 – 01:08:18:04
Brad Singletary
Just you’ve been a community man. I mean, you’ve been all around the place. What do you see guys messing up on what? I mean, if our average listener is a 40 year old father, let’s say younger father, you know, maybe has a couple of kids working fairly functional, but what kinds of things do you think average guys are missing out on or not doing well?

01:08:18:04 – 01:08:23:04
Brad Singletary
Not paying enough attention to mistakes they’re making see any patterns.

01:08:25:05 – 01:08:28:09
Donald “Butch” Williams
I think one is just trying to learn to listen.

01:08:29:06 – 01:08:31:09
Donald “Butch” Williams
It brings me back.

01:08:31:09 – 01:08:35:13
Donald “Butch” Williams
To the Bishop days. A couple would come in and be at each other’s throats.

01:08:35:21 – 01:08:39:07
Donald “Butch” Williams
You know, it’s his fault. It’s her fault, it’s his fault, it’s her fault.

01:08:40:00 – 01:08:44:09
Donald “Butch” Williams
And at first I thought I had answers that, well, I this is.

01:08:44:09 – 01:08:49:23
Donald “Butch” Williams
A real easy fix, you know, maybe, maybe you guys should do this. Maybe you should do that. That didn’t seem.

01:08:49:23 – 01:09:04:07
Donald “Butch” Williams
To work very well. And then it hit me one day. Just let him have it out a little bit. Just listen. Just slow down and listen. And once I did that, they would go, boom.

01:09:04:07 – 01:09:15:07
Donald “Butch” Williams
Boom, boom. And then they would look at me like I was a miracle worker. Hey, that was great. Oh, my high five. I didn’t say anything. I just listened so.

01:09:16:27 – 01:09:47:05
Donald “Butch” Williams
You know, it’s the best thing in life. Well, that’s that’s an exaggeration, but one of the wonderful things in life is maybe you are the smartest person in the room, but nobody has to know about it. You know, when you walk into a room and you’re humble and you’re listening, then people want to talk to you, then you know what the issues are, whether it be your wife or your child or somebody you’re trying to mentor, you don’t know the issues.

01:09:47:05 – 01:10:09:05
Donald “Butch” Williams
If you begin to talk to you quick, you just got to listen. And guess what? Listening takes time so that’s to me, it’s I know it sounds so simple, but it’s not simple. But if but if we and I I’m still working on this. Trust me, if we’ll work on the concept of listening, we’re probably going to go pretty far in life.

01:10:11:00 – 01:10:23:23
Brad Singletary
What keeps guys from listening and why don’t they? You’re saying it takes some time to do that and maybe patience, but what else? What other obstacles do men have keep them? Why don’t we listen very well?

01:10:23:23 – 01:10:24:20
Jimmy Durbin
Can I jump in here?

01:10:24:20 – 01:10:26:14
Donald “Butch” Williams
Yeah, yeah, jump in. Yeah.

01:10:27:15 – 01:10:51:06
Jimmy Durbin
Feedback. I got quite a bit in my late twenties and thirties. Jimmy, people don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care because it was always about me. I always wanted to impress you. I was coming from a place of, you know, negative beliefs about myself or whatever the situation was. Or I had to prove myself.

01:10:51:06 – 01:11:17:21
Jimmy Durbin
And so I had to be the smart, you know, whatever that was. And so I wasn’t listening. I was talking about me and I just kept hearing this feedback from different people in my life at different times of, like, just shut up and lead with your heart. And I think when I first walked in that same space with you, that’s what hit me was here’s a guy who I can see his heart.

01:11:17:21 – 01:11:24:24
Jimmy Durbin
I can see the love in your eyes. I can it radiates in your face, this countenance, the glow, despite the fact that you’re bald.

01:11:25:03 – 01:11:45:02
Donald “Butch” Williams
You ready? And you see the glow there. You see, I had like five years left at the front and I lifted off and my wife’s like, word your hair go. I said, Honey, somebody took a picture of my bald head two weeks ago and showed it to me. So I just finished the job yeah. I think it’d stay in that way now, but I don’t know.

01:11:45:03 – 01:11:46:29
Donald “Butch” Williams
Looks good. It looks good.

01:11:47:26 – 01:11:49:00
Brad Singletary
Kind of like it myself.

01:11:49:00 – 01:11:52:12
Donald “Butch” Williams
Yeah, it’s not bad. But. No, I know.

01:11:52:12 – 01:12:16:02
Donald “Butch” Williams
It’s it. It takes time. It’s a it’s a skill. I’m still working on it sometimes. But you met. You answered your own question. You might not know that, knowing that you did, because we’re moving along, but you said two things. Time and patience to be a listener. It’s going to take some time time’s only measured in men, so we have a limited amount of it.

01:12:16:02 – 01:12:20:11
Donald “Butch” Williams
So that leads into the next thing. A 40 year old guy with three kids at home.

01:12:20:20 – 01:12:21:28
Donald “Butch” Williams
He don’t have a lot of time.

01:12:21:28 – 01:12:35:23
Donald “Butch” Williams
In his mind. He’s like, I got to go here. I got this, I got that, and impatience. And most of us are not born with that one, right? So we have to learn it over time. So time and patience.

01:12:36:09 – 01:12:57:01
Brad Singletary
I think, too, that if you believe that there is something valuable coming from the other person, I mean, to listen also requires that you respect who’s talking and you respect who’s who’s out there. Even if it’s your children, they’ll tell you important things if you just listen. I remember listening to a an audio book or, I don’t know, some influencer of some kind.

01:12:57:01 – 01:13:07:18
Brad Singletary
And he said he was talking about like your wife complaining at you or something. And he said, you want that data, that’s information you want. Don’t act like don’t shut yourself down.

01:13:07:28 – 01:13:08:16
Donald “Butch” Williams
Hear it.

01:13:09:17 – 01:13:16:01
Brad Singletary
Hear it, and then you can do something and then you can minimize it by taking action and listen. But you have to listen first.

01:13:16:08 – 01:13:43:05
Jimmy Durbin
And I think what comes with that time and patience, at least for me, was the realization that no matter who was in front of me, there is value. They have something to offer. But because of my ego and my pride and my judgment, you don’t have you don’t have anything offer. And that is that is the ego. That is my pride of of believing that and instilling that.

01:13:43:05 – 01:13:44:28
Jimmy Durbin
And so I don’t have to listen.

01:13:45:23 – 01:14:09:16
Donald “Butch” Williams
That is so good. Before I came here, I was at a different meeting, and this church leader stood up and he said, I want to show you this picture, and it’s a picture of Christ. And he’s getting ready to heal someone, but you can’t see the person he’s healing. He goes, Do you notice that kids and he’s talking to a group of kids, even this 56 year old kid.

01:14:09:16 – 01:14:43:16
Donald “Butch” Williams
And I’m like, I know where he’s going with this. He says, Christ can’t see the person when you go serve someone you never want to think that they are less than you or anyone else. In other words, you want to be on the same plane. Everybody’s got a story, and it’s usually a pretty good story. And when you take time to listen to anyone, you’re going to probably get some nuggets that are going to bless your life.

01:14:43:20 – 01:14:55:22
Donald “Butch” Williams
I mean, I’m sitting there listening to you guys today and I’m just thinking, man, I’m just learning from these guys. They think they know I’m learning. I’m sitting here learning from these guys, you know.

01:14:56:05 – 01:14:57:11
Jimmy Durbin
Which is why men need men.

01:14:57:20 – 01:14:59:01
Donald “Butch” Williams
That’s why I’m in me then.

01:14:59:11 – 01:15:17:10
Brad Singletary
That’s right. That is exactly why. So tell me something that you’re still trying to figure out about life. You know, you’re saying you’re 56, you’re still growing, still learning to be a man, but literally something that you want to still maybe begin or still round off in your life.

01:15:17:24 – 01:15:51:13
Donald “Butch” Williams
You know, I saw that question is a precursor. What am I what am I still trying to learn so this is going to sound a little generic, but but I do mean it. I’m still trying to learn more about the nature of God. I’m still trying to understand how you know, his compassion can be there for even a guy like me raised in downtown Las Vegas, maybe I’m still trying to get better at my profession.

01:15:52:06 – 01:16:15:26
Donald “Butch” Williams
I mean, I’ve thought about this concept of retiring and, you know, these types of things and just doesn’t feel right. It just feels like I can still learn and maybe be of some benefit to my clients. If. Right, if they want me to do something that maybe I can help them with it, you know? So I think it’s just this concept of ever learning ever learning whatever’s around us.

01:16:16:11 – 01:16:20:04
Donald “Butch” Williams
I don’t know what tomorrow brings. So we’ll see.

01:16:20:13 – 01:16:45:24
Brad Singletary
So what is the most alpha attribute about you? And we just I just did a podcast before this one that I’m kind of trying to define that because I hate the way the world looks at the alpha male that’s such an ugly caricature. But Alpha being the highest part of you, you know, the best, purest, most, you know, the most, the strongest brightest piece inside you.

01:16:45:24 – 01:16:54:16
Brad Singletary
What is, what is that for you? Something that you can really be proud of and own as a talent or gift. What’s special about you? What is your superpower?

01:16:55:24 – 01:16:56:18
Donald “Butch” Williams
I don’t know.

01:16:57:14 – 01:16:58:05
Donald “Butch” Williams
I saw that.

01:16:58:05 – 01:17:00:27
Donald “Butch” Williams
Question, too, and I wanted to punch that thing down the.

01:17:00:27 – 01:17:03:11
Donald “Butch” Williams
Field. You know, but then I.

01:17:03:22 – 01:17:09:21
Donald “Butch” Williams
When I painted it, I felt like our punter in high school one time, he put it and it went right off his foot into the stands, to the right.

01:17:10:05 – 01:17:13:19
Donald “Butch” Williams
And I never seen 180 degree punt before. And we.

01:17:13:19 – 01:17:16:02
Donald “Butch” Williams
Saw it. I’m not going to mention his name, Jim Capper.

01:17:16:02 – 01:17:19:08
Donald “Butch” Williams
But if you’re out there, our best punt die or saw in my life.

01:17:20:04 – 01:17:44:24
Donald “Butch” Williams
I don’t you know, this is really a tough one, right? Because it makes you talk about maybe equality. You you have figured out about yourself over the years that maybe you could pass on. Right? I mean, really isn’t that kind of the core of the question I would say just keep working at it. Whatever you’re doing, just keep working at it.

01:17:45:19 – 01:18:10:22
Donald “Butch” Williams
You know, if you’re in a tough spot right now, tomorrow’s probably going to get brighter. And if it’s not tomorrow, it’s going to be the next day if you keep working at it. Right. I remember an old, old guy named Jeff NGO Bush gave a little talk one time and the first reminder that he gave himself every day is, I am a child of God.

01:18:11:13 – 01:18:18:11
Donald “Butch” Williams
I am a child of God. My mom used to say to me, hey, Butchie, you know, I don’t like you sometimes.

01:18:18:19 – 01:18:22:21
Donald “Butch” Williams
But I do love you. There’s some days I don’t like you, but I love you.

01:18:23:08 – 01:18:44:16
Donald “Butch” Williams
And so I look at God that way. You know, there’s some days he’s not going to like the decisions I make because they’re my decisions and they’re prideful and they’re, you know, but I know he loves me. And I as I jump into scriptures every day or listen to a talker, I’m reminding you of that love. I, I, I see that love in the eyes of all those at the Las Vegas rescue mission.

01:18:45:12 – 01:18:56:16
Donald “Butch” Williams
I remember walking to church one day as a bishop. This guy was walking right to I’d always walk to church because it was a one mile walk to my church from my house. And with having six kids at home, it gave me a chance just to.

01:18:56:16 – 01:18:58:19
Donald “Butch” Williams
Clear my mind a little bit and go try to be.

01:18:58:19 – 01:19:22:15
Donald “Butch” Williams
A bishop right in. This guy is walking at me and he’s big guy. He’s burly, and he’s tattooed from head to toe, and I’ve never felt like I was a real judgmental person, but I’ve judged and I’ve judged wrongfully, you know, that guy’s walking that me. All of a sudden I went from his tattooed body into his eyes and I could just see the light of Christ in this guy.

01:19:22:27 – 01:19:45:13
Donald “Butch” Williams
And I said, That guy right there is your brother. And things changed that. How I viewed people from that day forward, I just, you know, nobody’s less than you. Nobody’s better than you. If you’re going to compare yourself with someone, if you really find it necessary to compare yourself with someone, go ahead and compare yourself to God. You’ll get yourself humble because you know, he creates worlds without end.

01:19:46:00 – 01:19:46:16
Donald “Butch” Williams
And you’re.

01:19:46:16 – 01:20:01:13
Donald “Butch” Williams
Sitting here just trying to make $10, keep a little money in your pocket to pay the bills next month. Right? Right. So I mean, just keep working, right? Do the best you can, stay humble and keep working. Things will work out. They do.

01:20:02:13 – 01:20:30:01
Brad Singletary
You just have so many stellar qualities, man. When I someone asked me before what what I thought it meant to to be an alpha. And I read this book recently called King Warrior, Magician, Lover and to me, that kind of this book is about archetypes and that we all possess these different archetypes. So that of King Now that would be like the good leader, you know, a benevolent king he’s giving to his kingdom and whatever he’s king.

01:20:30:01 – 01:20:55:07
Brad Singletary
That’s the leadership area. And then warrior is the guy who’s fighting for the good, you know, fighting for the right thing. That’s your profession. You know, maybe you’re you’re a warrior that way. You’re a warrior. We’re talking about that. The Las Vegas rescue mission, helping, helping in good causes. You’ve been involved with a lot of those things. Magician means you have specialized knowledge, not only that, you have specialized knowledge, but that you share it.

01:20:55:13 – 01:21:16:16
Brad Singletary
So unlike a street magician, this kind of magician is someone who would teach their tricks. And you’re doing that with your son in law who’s in your practice and all the young attorneys that you’ve been able to influence. And then lover lover is a guy that’s showing up with donuts at the grandkids every Friday or, you know, dancing in the stands at the the Golden Knights hockey games.

01:21:17:09 – 01:21:35:26
Brad Singletary
You you just you just a grateful person. I’ve just seen some amazing things from you and I really appreciate you being here to to to join with this man. And I and I hope that we can, you know, I don’t know, continue our friendship. I guess we haven’t been super close, but I’ve known you for probably 15 years.

01:21:35:26 – 01:21:57:20
Brad Singletary
And a guy came to me one time to work with me. And you were called as his leader. You were in that period and he said, I believe that God knows who I am because this person was, you know, he’s my pastor, he’s my bishop. And he is a person that I believe is going to help me in my life.

01:21:57:20 – 01:22:16:13
Brad Singletary
And and I remember hearing just how you two this guy was kind of like the man who influenced you way back and that you treated him that way. Maybe you had him in your home and all these kinds of things. And it’s just it’s just great to know that there are men like you around. You’ve got these great polarities.

01:22:16:13 – 01:22:54:21
Brad Singletary
So on one hand, you know, you’re running every morning. You’ve got you’ve drive, you ride a Harley, you have a black Corvette. And yet, you know, your biggest goal is to continue to learn to understand God. Like you don’t see those kinds of things in people, you know, motorcycle, motocross rider back in the day, marathoner Harley Davidson, you know, Corvette driver and highly spiritual talking about tenderness, you know, the love and people that kind of that is the most brilliant, beautiful stuff that I’ve ever seen in guys.

01:22:54:21 – 01:23:05:02
Brad Singletary
And you just you really represent that a lot. So thank you for who you are and for being willing to come and share with us a little bit here. Do they Jimmy, do you have any closing thoughts or questions or.

01:23:05:02 – 01:23:28:13
Jimmy Durbin
No, I just Butch here. I appreciate thank you for showing up in the world you know, thank you for the difference that you make. I still think you punted that that question. You know, I think your superpower, you love your love. You found a way to fall in love with yourself and it it shows up. And so thank you.

01:23:29:01 – 01:23:54:11
Donald “Butch” Williams
Man. You’re welcome. And I and I’m never going to forget the term it was worth driving out here for a lot of reasons. First you see again, Brad. But second of all, I’m never going to forget that terminology. A hard back and a soft front that that just that’s the the the new saying for this week just hard back sometimes your back’s got to be hard that world’s coming at you but you can keep your front soft.

01:23:54:16 – 01:23:55:05
Donald “Butch” Williams
I love it.

01:23:55:05 – 01:23:56:09
Jimmy Durbin
Yeah. Keep your heart open.

01:23:56:10 – 01:23:58:17
Donald “Butch” Williams
Oh, so good. So good.

01:23:58:25 – 01:24:00:21
Brad Singletary
I’m just soft everywhere I’m soft in.

01:24:02:11 – 01:24:10:21
Donald “Butch” Williams
I need to harden up a little bit like these two guys. A little myself. Great. Soft. Yeah. What’s that joke from the eighties?

01:24:11:14 – 01:24:13:24
Donald “Butch” Williams
We used to tell each other. You get Dunlap Disease?

01:24:13:24 – 01:24:24:07
Donald “Butch” Williams
Yeah. You know what’s dumb about disease? When you’re barely done, that’s over your male rash. I don’t know where they get these things. The eighties were a great time to be alive. Hey, would.

01:24:25:25 – 01:24:36:01
Brad Singletary
You guys, we just want to highlight some of the best men that we can get our hands on. And I think we’ve scored big time here tonight. This Lou Williams, I meant to ask you how to why the name Butch.

01:24:36:09 – 01:24:41:07
Donald “Butch” Williams
You know, you wonder if you’re going. That’s Alpha from day one when they start calling you. But you’re a.

01:24:41:07 – 01:24:42:21
Brad Singletary
Total stud when they do that.

01:24:43:04 – 01:24:45:12
Donald “Butch” Williams
So that is a story.

01:24:47:16 – 01:24:47:24
Donald “Butch” Williams
When.

01:24:47:24 – 01:25:05:04
Donald “Butch” Williams
I was born, my mom wanted to name me Don because she had an Uncle Don. That was just a talk about a humble guy. I remember him as a kid. He’d come into our home and he he was so humble. Adam Langley was his name. Well, I had another Uncle Don, and.

01:25:06:02 – 01:25:10:14
Donald “Butch” Williams
He was a little rougher. So my my mom my mom.

01:25:10:14 – 01:25:11:29
Donald “Butch” Williams
Wanted to name me after the.

01:25:12:20 – 01:25:15:11
Donald “Butch” Williams
More humble Don. Good. Don. Yeah, yeah.

01:25:15:29 – 01:25:21:10
Donald “Butch” Williams
And my dad said, Well, I’ll tell you how we’re going to solve this problem. I’m just going to call him Butch.

01:25:22:03 – 01:25:25:01
Donald “Butch” Williams
And that was it. I thought I had it.

01:25:25:01 – 01:25:25:26
Donald “Butch” Williams
Shaken in high.

01:25:25:26 – 01:25:27:12
Donald “Butch” Williams
School. Nope.

01:25:28:19 – 01:25:29:17
Donald “Butch” Williams
College? Nope.

01:25:30:24 – 01:25:36:03
Donald “Butch” Williams
Law school? No. Got into the professional world. A few clients call me.

01:25:36:03 – 01:25:37:06
Donald “Butch” Williams
Don, and it’s still Butch.

01:25:37:06 – 01:25:39:07
Donald “Butch” Williams
So I imagine that’s.

01:25:39:07 – 01:25:40:10
Donald “Butch” Williams
Will be on my tombstone.

01:25:40:10 – 01:25:42:03
Donald “Butch” Williams
When I get creamy.

01:25:42:03 – 01:25:46:02
Donald “Butch” Williams
Cremate it off the coast of Hawaii. I heard you can do that for 300 bucks.

01:25:46:02 – 01:25:50:06
Donald “Butch” Williams
I said, Why not? You know, I like the North Shore. Throw you.

01:25:50:06 – 01:25:51:08
Brad Singletary
In a volcano or what.

01:25:51:08 – 01:26:01:17
Donald “Butch” Williams
Do they do? It’s a Neptune society. 300 bucks. You know, they sizzle you and put you out on the ocean, man. That way, when I’m resurrected, man, I’m in one cool area. So I’ve got.

01:26:01:17 – 01:26:04:08
Donald “Butch” Williams
That in my trust right now. But my wife says I have to change it.

01:26:06:16 – 01:26:09:04
Jimmy Durbin
Tell her the new thing now is composting. So you just want to be.

01:26:09:18 – 01:26:10:00
Donald “Butch” Williams
Stuffed.

01:26:11:17 – 01:26:12:09
Brad Singletary
Into a tree.

01:26:12:09 – 01:26:13:27
Jimmy Durbin
And then spread the dirt all over.

01:26:15:14 – 01:26:20:17
Donald “Butch” Williams
Oh, that’s a little stuff going on there. Yes, it is. And it’s great to.

01:26:20:17 – 01:26:21:19
Donald “Butch” Williams
Be with you guys. Thank you.

01:26:21:19 – 01:26:22:13
Brad Singletary
Thank you, man.

01:26:22:13 – 01:26:24:02
Jimmy Durbin
Thanks for coming in, you guys.

01:26:24:08 – 01:26:27:10
Brad Singletary
Until next time, no excuses, Alpha.

01:26:29:14 – 01:26:34:16
Speaker 3
Gentlemen, you are the Alpha and this is the Alpha Quorum.

01:26:40:11 – 01:26:41:12
Donald “Butch” Williams
There it is.

 

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085: SQUARED AWAY – Alpha Discipline with RADM Stephen  Mehling

085: SQUARED AWAY – Alpha Discipline with RADM Stephen Mehling

085: SQUARED AWAY – Alpha Discipline with RADM Stephen Mehling

This episode is special. With our most distinguished guest ever on this podcast, Brad Singletary and Jimmy Durbin interview a man with high distinction, retired Coast Guard Rear Admiral Stephen Mehling. Our topic is discipline and Admiral Mehling presents some surprising elements of discipline that most men surely never consider.

His military experience spans nearly 40 years which included worldwide impact as evidenced by a chest full of medals awarded for exceptional leadership in extremely high-level roles. He shares some exciting stories of both courage and compassion from profound experiences beginning in 1976 at the United States Coast Guard Academy. Admiral Mehling teaches in pure Alpha style: with both boldness and gentleness, with humor and high value, with both energy and reverence. This is a remarkable conversation that all men should hear.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

 

Stephen Mehling:

In times of crisis. It’s that habit pattern that that is going to carry you through. Doing the right thing isn’t always easy, and the disciplined individual, they’re going to be willing to stand up and say when things aren’t right and take action to make them right.

Brad Singletary:

Want respect. Be consistent. Boy, that really commands a lot of respect when people know that you can be counted on.

Jimmy Durbin:

There’s a series of actions and I need to take those actions regardless of how I feel. You know, when I ran my life on my feelings it doesn’t work out so well.

Stephen Mehling:

When I was a pilot of a helicopter crew, even though I wasn’t the rescue swimmer in the back of the aircraft, it was going to have to jump out into the water, you know, to pick someone up or the hoist operator. We knew what everyone else was going to do in certain situations because that’s the way it was trained.

Stephen Mehling:

And we really emphasized that you got to practice the way you’re going to play the game. That’s true in the military. It’s true in sports. And it’s true in life.

Intro:

If you’re a man that controls his own destiny, a man that is always in the pursuit of being better, you are in the right place. You are responsible. You are strong. You are a leader. You are a force for good. Gentlemen, You are the alpha. And this is the Alpha Quorum.

Brad Singletary:

Welcome back to the Alpha Quorum of show. Brad Singletary here. You guys, I’m pretty excited about our guest today who I’m going to introduce here in just a few moments. But our topic tonight is discipline. I’m joined also by Jimmie Durbin, LCSW, w. I don’t think we talked about that in the most recent show where you just recently I don’t know how not recently.

Brad Singletary:

It’s been several months last year, sometimes fully licensed at the highest level in his profession, clinical, social worker.

Jimmy Durbin:

Alcohol and drug clinical, too.

Brad Singletary:

Oh, you got that as well. Okay. So he’s got all kind of letters behind his name and he is working in private practice so would you say.

Stephen Mehling:

Yeah.

Jimmy Durbin:

Do mostly trauma, you know, certified with EMDR and most not most just a large chunk just human and sex trafficking victims from that.

Brad Singletary:

Jimmy’s done a lot with the drug courts. He’s done all kinds of different programs. I remember having a talk with him one time asking him to just settle down with all of his little volunteer things that he’s doing. And then I asked him to volunteer for my stuff over here. So I was a little bit hypocrite, I guess So I’m super excited about this guest today.

Brad Singletary:

So this man is the father of one of my friends and a colleague of mine who’s a therapist here in Las Vegas. And he’s a retired Coast Guard rear admiral, currently living in Las Vegas. Prior to his retirement in 2015, he served as the director of Joint Interagency Task Force South and Key West, Florida, where he directed an international, interagency and Multi-Service Coalition effort to combat illicit trafficking throughout a 42 million square mile joint operating area in the Western Hemisphere.

Brad Singletary:

His previous flag assignments included Commander, Coast Guard Force Readiness Command, Director of Operations, Coast Guard, Atlantic Area and Commander Coast Guard, 14th District. He was a career aviator with 17 years of operational flying experience on the East Coast, West Coast and Gulf Coast. He had Air Station command tours in Houston, Texas, and Miami, Florida, where he directed fixed and rotary wing aircraft operations throughout the Southeast.

Brad Singletary:

United States and the Caribbean, including oversight of the Coast Guard Support Detachment in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Between aviation assignments he served nine years in program oversight and personnel management duties in Washington, D.C., including service as the Chief of Officer, Personnel Management, Deputy Chief of aviation forces and Shipboard Helicopter Platform Manager. During these assignments, he directed the shipboard testing of the H.H. 60 J Helicopter aboard.

Brad Singletary:

Coast Guard cutters participated in the Commission on Roles and Missions of the Armed Forces and was presented the DOT Secretary’s Team Award for his leadership of the Aviation Resource Modeling Team. He received his commission in 1980 following graduation from the Coast Guard Academy. His first assignment was as a deck watch officer and as the operations officer aboard CDC sweet gum.

Brad Singletary:

Following his tour afloat he attended flight training in Pensacola Florida in 1982 and was designated as a Coast Guard aviator in 1983. He holds a bachelor of science degree with high honors in mathematics from the United States Coast Guard Academy and a Master of Science degree in management from the University of Maryland He has attended the Asia Pacific Center for Security Studies in Honolulu and was a member of the U.S. delegation to the Pacific Islands Forum in Kansas.

Brad Singletary:

Earlier. His military awards include the Defense Superior Service Medal to Legions of Merit for Meritorious Service Medals with operational device, two Air Medals, two Coast Guard Commendation Medals with operational device, the nine 11 medal, and numerous other team, unit and individual awards. He and his wife have been married for 41 years and they have two married adult children and three grandchildren.

Brad Singletary:

Gentlemen, I’m so pleased to welcome to the Alpha Quorum Show, retired Rear Admiral Stephen Maler. Dude, I have. I feel so weird to even say dude, admiral, it’s.

Stephen Mehling:

Just this. It’s okay, Brad.

Brad Singletary:

Man, this is so impressive to be here. I’m so thankful for the service.

Stephen Mehling:

Yes.

Brad Singletary:

I. I’m so glad to have you here. Like, I. I don’t think you are the oldest guest that we’ve had. I guess my dad was on the show, and he’s so he’s 30 years older than me. So he’ll be like 77 this year. No, you’re not. You’re nowhere near there. But you’ve been retired since 20, 15. And I was talking to Admiral here about having this show the week before the Super Bowl.

Brad Singletary:

So I was thinking, all right, the playoff game this week, next week is the Super Bowl. So maybe we can do it, you know, this Sunday. And he says, hey Brad, it’s the Pro Bowl.

Stephen Mehling:

And it’s in Vegas.

Brad Singletary:

And I thought, you know what? You’re either enjoying your retirement very well or you’re a huge football fan. That’d be all about the Pro Bowl. So I love that you’re a football fan and and love your service to our country. I’ve done a little research on the Coast Guard, and it’s fascinating. A high school football team mate of mine went to the Coast Guard Academy.

Brad Singletary:

And as far as I know, he’s maybe still a helicopter pilot, so. Coast Guard stuff, man. Just briefly talk about how that’s maybe different or unique in general compared to other branches of the military. I’ve done some research and you have all these. I had to look at what a cutter is.

Stephen Mehling:

Well, a cutter is just a name for a big ship, you know? You know, it could be you know, most of our large cutters are about the size of Navy frigates, you know, and you know, the Coast Guard, the most unique thing about the Coast Guard is that we are not only just military, which we are where we’re a part of the armed forces of the United States at all times, but we’re also law enforcement.

Stephen Mehling:

And that’s really what the big hook is. And the reason that we’re law enforcement is because our roots go back to 1790, and that’s to the revenue cutter service. And it was Alexander Hamilton, who was secretary of the Treasury. So we started off in the Treasury Department, not in the in the War Department, which is now the Defense Department.

Stephen Mehling:

Yeah, that’s so fast.

Brad Singletary:

And in 17, 19. I mean, that’s one of the earliest forms of any military type presence. Right? I mean, wasn’t isn’t the one of the longest standing at least that in terms of the maritime stuff.

Stephen Mehling:

We are the longest continuously serving armed force in the United States. Obviously the Marine Corps and the Navy and the Army were around during the revolution. Right. But after the war of Independence, they were all disbanded. You know, there was still there were still militia, which is I guess the the predecessor to the National Guard. But there wasn’t anything.

Stephen Mehling:

And that’s why we were the United States was getting kind of abused by pirates and from other countries And that’s why Alexander Hamilton said, you know, hey, we need something in order to be able to collect their tariffs and protect our goods and do those kinds of things. And so the revenue cutter service was formed.

Brad Singletary:

That’s amazing. So, Rear Admiral, that is as far as that’s like two star general, isn’t that right? Yeah, that’s it. Yeah.

Stephen Mehling:

The equivalent would be a major general. Yes.

Brad Singletary:

I mean, it’s just exciting to me that that part is just very exciting. I, I feel like I missed something I wanted to serve in the military. My uncle was a major in the Marine Corps, and I always, as a kid, probably from like 12 to maybe 14 or 15, I really thought that’s, that’s something that I wanted to do.

Brad Singletary:

I kind of aspired to go into the Naval Academy, but I was, had none of the.

Jimmy Durbin:

Liked the discipline. Yes.

Stephen Mehling:

Exactly. It was my.

Brad Singletary:

Problem. I lacked the discipline. And so when I was looking at guest for this topic, I just thought, here’s someone who since I mean 19 if you were commissioned in 1980.

Stephen Mehling:

1976 I went to the academy.

Brad Singletary:

The United States Coast Guard Academy. That’s what New Jersey.

Stephen Mehling:

No it’s in New London, Connecticut, Connecticut. But you know, ironically you mentioned the Naval Academy. I grew up on the seven river outside of Annapolis, which is the river that the Naval Academy is on. And I had an appointment to the Naval Academy.

Brad Singletary:

Oh wow.

Stephen Mehling:

And then I was an alternate to the Coast Guard Academy. That’s how difficult the Coast Guard Academy was to get into searching that.

Brad Singletary:

Yes.

Stephen Mehling:

Yeah. I mean, the only school at the time that I went to the Coast Guard Academy that was more selective than the Coast Guard Academy was the Juilliard School of Music.

Brad Singletary:

Oh, my God.

Stephen Mehling:

That was the only one. And so, yeah, I had a principal appointment to the Naval Academy and was getting ready to go to Annapolis. And then I my alternate status changed to a to a primary appointment. And so I had to turn the Navy down and go to New London. But then I went to flight school with the Navy at Pensacola.

Stephen Mehling:

And, you know, the rest is history.

Brad Singletary:

So there’s a lot of mixing with these other branches. It seems like. So just to be accepted into the Coast Guard Academy, I think I, I researched today. It’s like a 12 or 13% admission rate or something like that compared to the applicants. 13%. And average ordinary ignoramuses like myself aren’t even applying. So high level people are applying to the Coast Guard Academy.

Brad Singletary:

And of those 87% aren’t getting there. I never admitted. I mean that’s pretty cool. And then so your degree, I think it was high honors in mathematics.

Stephen Mehling:

Yeah. And, and after graduation, I never used it.

Brad Singletary:

Well, that I’m sure the whole thing just takes a lot of discipline. So as I was looking for looking at guests for this show, I just know that your career uh, you’ve been retired now since 20. 15. So, what, almost seven years now. And the only way that I believe a person can do anything like this is to have a high level of discipline.

Brad Singletary:

So I just wanted to pick your brain. You know, we’re not trying to sell guys on the military or the Coast Guard, but just. I think, you know, some things about discipline, and I think you can help the men who listen to our show. By the way, I want to thank you for your support of of what we’re doing here.

Brad Singletary:

You’ve listened to a number of our shows and have even admiral here has contributed to our Betterment scholarship fund where when men are beginning their careers in some trade or need some tool, we’ve got a little pot of we just have some gift cards. Basically, these are like visa gift card type things. And the admiral here made some a pretty sizable one of the largest contributions to that.

Brad Singletary:

And we bought some things like a saw for a welder. There’s a special saw that you cut metal. We helped a guy get some testing materials for his professional licensing exam and there may be some others. And I can’t remember what those were, but so appreciate your involvement with with this with this group. You know, this we have a Facebook group for those who who are familiar and just really looking forward to what we may learn from you today, sir.

Brad Singletary:

So let’s start with mindset. You know, if a person wants to be discipline lind, what is different about the mindset of the man who wants to be disciplined?

Stephen Mehling:

Well, I think from a for my perspective, discipline is about structure. One of the guys I worked with actually, you know, served I wouldn’t say served under, but Admiral Bill McRaven, he was the commander of Special Ops Command when I was at Joint Interagency Task Force Staff. And he gave a speech He’s a he’s a UT graduate. One of my kids lives in Texas.

Stephen Mehling:

So hook em horns you know he in in 2014 he went to he went to UT and spoke as the commencement speaker. And he he gave a talk that says if you want to change the world, make your bed and it talks about a number of other things. But it basically goes back to when he was going through SEAL training in Coronado.

Stephen Mehling:

And the same thing would apply to most most aspects of the military. But there are certain things that you have to regularly do within the military. And the reason that it’s set up that way is so it provides you some discipline. And you know, sometimes it’s road items, some times it’s, you know, how you wear your uniform, how you shine your shoes, different techniques, tactics, techniques and procedures.

Stephen Mehling:

But there’s certain things that go on, and it provides you a structure that gives you that personal discipline. I would like to like to think that, you know, it’s kind of made up of of four things. And the four things that I think about when I think a discipline is a determination, a compassion and honor and a courage and determination, you know, is, you know, no matter how many mistakes you make or how slow your progress you’re still getting further ahead than most other people that aren’t even trying, you know, and that’s kind of that’s that structure aspect to it.

Stephen Mehling:

Compassion certainly discipline means to me, you know, you got it. You got to take care of not only yourself, but you got to take care of your team members. You got to take care of others as you’re going along. I think you have to have a foundation to where you’re coming from. And I think of that as kind of honor.

Stephen Mehling:

You know, you have a strong moral compass you know, the old the old saying is is, you know, if you’re still you know, if you if you don’t stand for anything, you’ll stand for for everything. You got to have something you know, some kind of a foundation. And the last portion of that is, you know, courage. Doing the right thing isn’t always easy.

Stephen Mehling:

And the disciplined individual, whether it be in sports or whether it be in, you know, in the military or whether it be in life, they’re going to be willing to stand up and say when things aren’t right and take action to make them right. And I think that’s important.

Brad Singletary:

You had determination. What was the second one?

Jimmy Durbin:

Compassion.

Brad Singletary:

Passion. That’s an interesting one. The third was honor, honor. And then courage. And compassion is interesting because when I when I walked into the room tonight, the admiral asked me about how I am doing and that that had to do with, you know, some personal situation that I’m dealing with that’s been a little bit difficult. But here’s a man who’s been all over the world as a commander, as a person in charge of these huge operations.

Brad Singletary:

By the way, this joint task thing I want to maybe hit that again somewhere because that this joint interagency I think that’s a pretty big deal. I want to highlight that a little bit more. But anyway, this guy has been in charge of major major things and has all kinds of awards, medals, all these accolades and accomplishments. And one of the interesting things that I happen to know about this man is his compassion.

Brad Singletary:

And I mentioned earlier that his daughter’s a licensed clinical social worker as well. And maybe she gets some of that from from you, too. So interesting that compassion goes into is connected to discipline. Jimi, what do you think of that compassion being a an element here? The admiral is talking about with discipline, compassion and discipline, how they go together.

Jimmy Durbin:

I mean, he’s we’re all human, right? We all want to be seen and heard and known. And I like that you know, the ingredients for discipline. But the compassion piece it’s at the empathy. You know, as well you can lead from the front or lead from behind. And I think when you have a leader who can meet you where you’re at and can bring you into it, bring me into existence, I’ll talk in first person I’m interested in that.

Jimmy Durbin:

You know, I’m interested in in what you do and how you’re doing it and will want to follow you from that piece. You know, the other if I’m leading from the front and I’m shouting orders and then there’s behavior stuff that I’m trying to do as far as that discipline. But I like that compassion piece that the other is the courage piece for me.

Jimmy Durbin:

I go right to vulnerability. So what underpins courage is vulnerability. And then I thought, well, how does that relate to the military? But if I’m showing up and standing up and I’m leading into battle, whatever that looks like on whatever front, the vulnerability pieces that I’m I’m protecting something that I love and stand for that moral agency. And ultimately they can get hurt various degrees.

Jimmy Durbin:

And so there’s the vulnerability piece for me.

Brad Singletary:

Yeah, the courage is just showing up. I mean, the courage is I’m sure that there have been some dangerous things that you’ve been involved with, Admiral. Some things that I can’t imagine. It’s a little scary to be. I grew up in Florida and I spent a lot of time on boats and men, the water itself, that is a scary element.

Brad Singletary:

In the in this on this earth. I tell you, I’ve on a small, small scale, nothing like what I think you’ve seen, I’m sure. But the water itself is a place that can be scary.

Stephen Mehling:

Our our colleagues in the other services used to joke with us is that we’ll fly when nobody else will. Because, you know, there used to be a saying and, you know, I’m not a proponent of this and the organization isn’t a proponent of this anymore. But when I first started off in the early, you know, in the in the seventies, with the coastguard, there was the saying was, you have to go out, but you don’t have to come back.

Stephen Mehling:

We don’t believe that anymore. If we every we want everybody to come back. So don’t you know, don’t you know, get me wrong in that regard. But, you know, we go out in some especially in the aviation field, you know, try try flying, try flying in hurricanes when everybody else is grounded, you know, but we you know, we go out and we do that.

Stephen Mehling:

We do it on a regular basis.

Brad Singletary:

Well, so determination, compassion.

Stephen Mehling:

Honor, honor, courage.

Brad Singletary:

That’s great. Yeah.

Stephen Mehling:

You know, one other thing I might want to, you know, might want to add with that. Sure. You know, it’s kind of geared toward discipline and it’s repetition. Okay. And I you know, I’m a kind of a fan of Tony Robbins and Tony Robbins, I think, said it best. It’s not what we do once in a while that shapes our lives, but what we do consistently.

Stephen Mehling:

And it’s that consistency that turns, processes, professional activities into something that’s rote and just part of your ethos. And to me, that’s discipline as well. It’s like I’m fortunate. I’ve never had, you know, a drug or alcohol problem, but I know that, you know, folks that have, you know, they have you know, their process that they follow every day, you know, in order to, you know, get them through that day and to and to keep them sober, to keep them, you know, drug or alcohol free.

Stephen Mehling:

And one day leads to the next day leads to the next day. And it’s and it’s that repetition that discipline, so to speak, that that gets them to where they need to be and to make the, you know, the extraordinary activity of staying sober or staying drug free. Part of the norm.

Brad Singletary:

I saw an advertisement. I think it may have been like Gold’s Gym or something to talked about want respect, be consistent. And I thought about that in a couple of places, like think about a church or a gym or something like that. You know, people new people show up all the time. Maybe people aren’t that friendly to the guy who’s on his first day in the gym or his first day in the church or his first day in the book club or whatever he belongs to.

Brad Singletary:

But when you are a consistent boy, that really commands a lot of respect when people know that your can be counted on. And Jimmy, you talk a lot about a series of habits and things that you do. I wonder, since the admiral mentioned something like that here.

Jimmy Durbin:

Yeah, that was beautiful. Thank you for that, Admiral, because I I personally believe that I needed to find a series of actions that I could take on a daily basis, regardless of how I felt to get and stay in recovery, spirituality, work on my marriage, you know, be a good husband, be a good father. Like there’s a there’s a series of actions.

Jimmy Durbin:

And I need to take those actions regardless of how I feel. You know, when I ran my life on my feelings, it doesn’t work out so well. So those aside and so I love that because I’ve been thinking about this all week is kind of preparing, like where is the crossover to from military to recovery from from the military you know, into just a normal guy’s life.

Jimmy Durbin:

And so I appreciate it. Yeah. You saying that.

Stephen Mehling:

I think later on, you know, we may talk a little bit more about this, but, you know, when you when you talk about that that day to day activity in your life. But it’s also from my perspective, Dave, important that in times of crisis, it’s it’s that habit pattern that absolutely. That it’s going to carry you through. And in the military, that’s very important.

Jimmy Durbin:

Yeah, that’s yeah, that’s a brilliant point. Same thing in recovery. You know, like I need to do my series of actions and run through that. And whether it means my morning routine and making my bed and brush my teeth and showering and eating and doing those things into just finding the meetings knowing where I’m going, building my try to having community of men, knowing who is a foxhole buddy that can sit with me and work through things with me.

Jimmy Durbin:

But I need to do all that when I’m not in crisis so that when that floor drops off or there’s a a bottom or a blip, I already know what to do. Like it’s just rote.

Brad Singletary:

I was fascinated to as I’m reading a little bit about the Coast Guard, the motto or what do they call that? The little the little Latin slogan.

Stephen Mehling:

Semper Paratus Always ready.

Brad Singletary:

Semper.

Stephen Mehling:

Always.

Brad Singletary:

Prepared, always ready. I mean, that’s cool. That’s cool. What you’re what you’re what you guys are saying that sometimes the preparation and the discipline way ahead of time that’s necessary. When the shit hits the fan, you’re prepared because you’ve done these routines, these consistent things, you’ve been disciplined you know, when you go through the divorce, you’re in recovery.

Brad Singletary:

Now you’re going through a divorce. You can stay sober because you you have this series of actions you get into some, you know, conflict situation or some scary mission or operation, but you can handle that because of all the discipline that you’ve been doing. In all the training thus far. Why is discipline such an important part of the military culture, military, law enforcement, a lot of those types of programs you mentioned Coast Guard is really both of those.

Brad Singletary:

Why is discipline such an important piece?

Stephen Mehling:

Well, I started off, you know, obviously at the Academy and then aboard ship. But the majority of my career I spent being in aviation and in aviation, whether it be military aviation or in commercial aviation, there’s a set of procedures. There’s whether it be emergency procedures or checklists for just normal start or for engine shutdown, you’re going to have these procedures.

Stephen Mehling:

And there and, you know, we used to not joke about it, but we used to say that, you know, quite honestly, especially when it came to emergency procedures, a lot of those things are written in blood the reason those steps are there in those procedures is because someone didn’t have that step in that procedure. And as a result of that, they didn’t get out of it.

Stephen Mehling:

When I was thinking about this, you know, this podcast, I thought a little bit about that and thought about Captain Sullenberger you know, old Sully. Sully, yeah. Sully Sullenberger, the U.S. Air flight that went into the Hudson River when he had that that supposedly impossible goal to have double engine failure he actually broke checklist. And had he not broke checklist, they would not have survived because the first thing he did, you know, in addition to, you know, getting the the first officer trying to, you know, start running through the checklists, turn it, you know, turn in toward where can they where can they get to and realizing they couldn’t get back to LaGuardia, they could make

Stephen Mehling:

it over to Teterboro. They were going to end up having to land in the Hudson. He turned his API on and the APA and aviation in an aircraft is an auxiliary power unit. And what that does is that gives you power to your hydraulics when your engine shut down. And if he hadn’t had power to his hydraulics, he would have never been able to safely land that aircraft.

Stephen Mehling:

You know, so that’s you know, that’s part of that having a process to go through, knowing what systems are, how they work, not just treating it well. The checklist says to do X or the procedure says to do Y, you know, and and and people not even realizing why it is they’re doing what they’re doing. I see that a lot even in, you know, out in out in the community here in Las Vegas, you can go to a store and, you know, people will punch a button on on a cash register or a screen or whatever it might be.

Stephen Mehling:

And they really don’t know what it is. They’re in a why it is they’re doing what they’re doing. They just know that they’ve been told to do it that way. You know, so disciplines important. Absolutely. No question about it. But you also have to know why it is you’re doing what it is you’re doing and what what the impact is of of those actions.

Brad Singletary:

Wow. That’s fascinating to kind of have a big picture view of things. I did some training the author or authors of the book The Oz principal, I think it was called They Came and they did some training on accountability. And they talked about most companies. Most organizations have no idea the the the staff have no idea what they’re doing.

Brad Singletary:

They don’t even know what the goals are and what the objectives are. And and so those are some great points So what kind of routines help military personnel develop, maintain discipline? You talked about, you know, making your bed and there’s a whole series of things. But from the beginning, I mean, maybe go back to your days in the academy or what is the daily?

Brad Singletary:

What are the daily? What are the daily things that matter? Uh, you mentioned even dress and hygiene and all that. What was some specifics?

Stephen Mehling:

Well, the the first thing that’s going to happen in any military structure, we’ve probably all seen movies you know, that have someone that’s, you know, going, going through, you know, whether it be Parris Island with the Marine Corps or some other, you know, some other kind of boot camp, you know, Hacksaw Ridge, you know, showed, you know, showed it during World War Two, you know, boot camp.

Stephen Mehling:

And I think it was a Mississippi. You know, it’s important in the military structure. What they’ll do is they actually break you down. They get rid of all hopefully all your bad habits. They get everybody operating from the same level of activity, the same level of of, you know, of cognizance. You know, they’re all thinking the same way.

Stephen Mehling:

And then they start building, you back up. And the reason they build you back up that way is because they really want to emphasize, you know, that no man is an island. You know, that that you absolute lee in the military depend on your teammates, on your you know, whether it’s here, the members of your squad, the member of your aircraft, you know, your aircraft crew, the member, your ship whatever it might be.

Stephen Mehling:

Everyone plays an integral role, just the same as you know, as you know, Brad, I’m a I’m a big Golden Knights fan. Right. You know, and.

Jimmy Durbin:

The Knights go.

Stephen Mehling:

Yeah, you know, hockey is a big thing for me. And there is absolutely no way except for maybe in a shootout when it’s one on one against the goalie that you’re going to win the game by yourself. It’s a team sport. This isn’t golf where, you know, you have the discipline of, you know, hitting hundreds of thousands of golf balls and sinking, you know, probably just as many putts on the practice green, you know, and certainly that takes a lot of discipline, too.

Stephen Mehling:

But in the military, it’s it’s not individual discipline. It’s team discipline. And it’s important to have everybody thinking to some extent. I mean, obviously, we’re not all robots. Right. You know, but but to a certain extent, you know, thinking the same way. I flew both helicopters and airplanes when I was a pilot of a helicopter crew. Even though I wasn’t the rescue swimmer in the back of the aircraft, it was going to have to jump out into the water, you know, to pick someone up or the hoist operator or, you know, whether I was the pilot or the copilot at that at that point in time, we knew what everyone else was going to do in

Stephen Mehling:

certain situations. Because that’s the way it was trained. And we really emphasized that you got to practice the way you’re going to play the game. That’s true in the military. It’s true in sports and it’s true in life.

Jimmy Durbin:

So you mentioned boot camp. So how does boot camp connect to discipline? Right. So it’s a breaking down here because here’s what I’m hearing you say. I got to know my strengths and my weaknesses. Like I need to get down just to the basics. And whether it’s in boot camp, you know, I need to in order to be disciplined, know what my strengths are and know what my weaknesses are so that I can just take an honest inventory and know what what stock is.

Jimmy Durbin:

I imagine that’s the same with boot camp, like breaking a man down and finding out where his strengths weaknesses are.

Stephen Mehling:

I think so. Sure. I think it’s important in a boot camp does a number of things. Certainly it it’s going to get you physically in shape, you know, whether it be, you know, boot camp in the enlisted ranks or whether it be officer candidate school or academy, whatever it might be, you’re essentially your assessing source, but it’s going to get you physically.

Stephen Mehling:

But even more important than that, and you know, I mentioned earlier on in our discussion about Bill McRaven is talk when when you go through buds, which is the early portion of SEAL training and you know, there’s been Coast Guard members that have gone through SEAL training, as well as Navy and Marine Corps members it’s not the biggest, the baddest that it’s going to get through the program because it’s that mental aspect that gets you through the tough times.

Stephen Mehling:

And it’s that mental discipline that the military tries to instill in its members to be able to get them through the tough times. The certainly there’s going to be times where a platoon commander or a company commander is going to have to give an order that’s going to put people in harm’s way. And you have to realize, you know, that somebody, you know, might not come back from that, but it’s important that they will respond because it may ultimately result in the greater good because they’ll be able to successfully accomplish the mission, even though there might be some casualties by taking action X but if they didn’t carry out that action, there might be significantly greater

Stephen Mehling:

a significantly greater number of casualties that go along. Now, the military certainly has one other piece, and it’s a little bit different than some civilian life. And that’s the Uniform Code of Military Justice, the UCMJ is kind of like our law book. It’s it’s the the the rules that we follow, the punishment, so to speak, for not following those rules.

Stephen Mehling:

And it’s much more maybe I should say it’s much less forgiving than the civilian legal system because it carries things all the way down to the level of I give you an order and you fit and I’m in a position of authority and you fail to follow that order. There are direct consequences for that. Or could be direct consequences for that.

Stephen Mehling:

That could range from, you know, limited amount of taking away of your liberty up to and including, you know, in a combat situation, you know, someone runs away, you know, under fire. I mean, that could be a capital offense. It’s so it’s you know, it’s pretty far reaching.

Brad Singletary:

What are some of the failures of the typical man in terms of discipline? And both you guys chime in on this. What are some of the typical failures of the average guy that if he adopted some of the military type of thinking in his world could help him? One of the things that I think I see in myself and the men that I work with is things even like when you wake up in how you go to sleep, I mean, control and discipline is there’s value in everything.

Brad Singletary:

I remember talking to a Navy SEAL one time and he talked about the need to control his bowels. And I thought.

Stephen Mehling:

Or not or not kill that mosquito you know, when you have to keep absolute silence in a. Yeah. Like in an ambush. Yeah.

Brad Singletary:

I mean, and I thought and of course, the my Freudian training kind of came to it like, yeah, you get to control your bowels, you know, he he decides when he goes to the bathroom. And I thought, that makes a lot of sense. You got it. You got to decide if it’s time to if it’s time to poop or get off the pot or else control.

Stephen Mehling:

Yes, the obviously.

Brad Singletary:

But then I remember even from like Stephen Covey, you know, he talked about you want to be disciplined, wake up at the same time every single day.

Stephen Mehling:

Yeah.

Brad Singletary:

And I think he actually mentioned or his example was that he gets up at five 55 every day. So from beginning of the day to the end of the day throughout a person’s tenure, I guess you call it in a service type organization or military, what kinds of things we talking about? Uniform grooming, their scheduling, what kinds of routines help these personnel develop discipline?

Stephen Mehling:

You know, when I think about it, I kind of break it down again into into four areas and the four air areas. I think about his personal self-control and structure. Okay. And we talked a little bit about structure earlier on. But and you mentioned with the controlling your battles, with the personal self-control, I think a fiscal discipline.

Brad Singletary:

Okay.

Stephen Mehling:

Sure. And in the civilian world, a lot of times, you know, people will know, for lack of a better term, carpe diem, live for the day. Right. You know, they aren’t really disciplined enough to plan for the future. Emotional discipline. And I describe that as, you know, it’s all about me ism. It’s not about a greater good. And you know, quite honestly, in my opinion, I think we have a bit of a problem with that as a society.

Stephen Mehling:

Yes. You know, because a lot of it is it’s all about me. It’s really not about the, you know, the greater good and sacrificing a little bit. And and I think we all, as men can try to, you know, lead the tribe or lead the family in order to to make them realize, especially our kids and our grandkids, you know, to think a little bit outside themselves.

Stephen Mehling:

And I think think a little bit about the greater good. The last thing I think about is procrastination, you know, in the military doesn’t really let you procrastinate, you know, because there are, you know, especially like in boot camp or the academy or something like that, there are formations, there are, you know, checks that you will be here at this time.

Stephen Mehling:

And you will do this and you will do this other thing. When I was in flight school, there was a kind of a cross between procrastination and fiscal. There was an organization that was talking about trying to make service members a bit more fiscally responsible. And one of the things that people always say is, you know, I will really, would really like to do that, but I never seem to get around to it.

Stephen Mehling:

And so, you know, we went to this this dinner and we got a presentation and then we you know, we actually went off and had the dinner. And when we came back on everyone’s seat, there was a little round circular wood coin and written on it was t o i t so that everybody got around to it. Got around to it.

Brad Singletary:

Oh, that’s awesome. You know, talking about the fiscal discipline, I think I read that one of the there’s a lot of reasons why I like Coast Guard Academy is so difficult, but one of the things they do as different from others may be is they do a credit check. They check like literally that’s you know, that maybe is an indicator of your sense of like discipline.

Brad Singletary:

And, you know, you can at least nowadays I mean I guess you went 45 years ago or whatever.

Stephen Mehling:

Well they they actually do that as part of any kind of a security oh a security clearance back. Oh okay. Yeah. You know they want to make sure that you’re that you’re not in a situation where you could be leveraged, uh, against, uh, classified material or sensitive information. So there’s, you know, you know, just the same reason is if you’ve got a really bad credit score, um, your car insurance might be higher because you’re, you’re statistically you, you are more of a risk and so that’s why they look at those things along with lots of other things.

Brad Singletary:

And when I think about, you know, the uniformity and so forth when it comes to military stuff, think about what it looks like when you see what I see, though, you know, if I have ever seen like those red helicopters or these I guess they’re called cutters you know, if you see the red and white, you know, use or if you in any from any branch, you see someone, any kind of display or any presence of any, you know, military law enforcement is the same.

Brad Singletary:

There is I don’t care who you are. If you see that there is automatic respect because there’s probably some fear because you know that these folks can get you know, they they and I think the reason for some of that respect is, you know, that they are disciplined. You know, that these are highly trained professionals, highly trained warriors, highly trained officers, highly trained technicians, highly trained, and that they are very, very disciplined.

Brad Singletary:

So does that make sense? There’s a respect for that. And I think it’s because of the disciplined it’s all of the equipment is shiny. Everyone is dressed well, everyone is look sharp. They have they understand their equipment there’s so much discipline. I think that’s what makes us in are from little boys. My five my six year old, he’s telling me every day he talks about he’s going to be in the Army is going to be in the Army as well.

Brad Singletary:

He’s terrified of that. But I’m like, oh, my goodness, this is great. Look, he’s got all these little soldiers and he plays with them every single day. And he and he talks about, you know, how old do I have to be just at random times. And I’m proud of this. I’m like, yes, he wants to do he wants to serve.

Brad Singletary:

But I think something that he craves is discipline anyway. I’m just so fascinated by the culture of discipline that shows up in our military. So what kind of discipline might the average guy be lacking? Ordinary dude, our average listener is a 38 to 45 year old dad, you know, and he’s working and he has a decent income and he’s a really solid guy in most ways.

Brad Singletary:

But how’s the average guy lacking in discipline, would you say?

Stephen Mehling:

Well, some guys aren’t okay. Yeah, some you know, I’ve some of some of the most disciplined people I’ve met, you know, not be not people that we’re in the military. I mean, but, you know, just like any other community or like any community, there’s going to be people that are more disciplined and some other people that are a little bit less disciplined.

Stephen Mehling:

By and large, I, I think it comes back to structure. You know, I think it’s, you know, you know, I, I used to say to people, you know, when I was, you know, coming up through the military, you either have a plan or you’re part of somebody else’s home. And if you, if you have a plan and whether that plan be for how are you going to be successful, a business successful in the military, financially successful if it’s your plan, you know, that it’s going to be focused toward your success, whether or not you have a plan or not, you’re going to be part of somebody’s plan.

Stephen Mehling:

And if it’s somebody else’s plan, it may not necessarily be to your best interest. It might not get you where you want to be career wise or financially or emotionally. In a you know, in a marriage, you know, two guys go after the same girl if he’s got a plan. And you don’t just you may never even get off, you know, get a get away from home.

Stephen Mehling:

Plate, you know, before you strike out. You know, meanwhile, he said, you know, he’s you know, he’s he’s on the bases and and and scoring big.

Brad Singletary:

Wow. That’s great. What’s your plan? I mean, that is a good indicator about our level of discipline. Is first, is there even a is or even a plan? Jimi, what do you think? What how do most guys fail at discipline or what do you see the typical guy that once maybe listening to this show where do they have deficiencies when it comes to discipline.

Jimmy Durbin:

Well, I think as we you know, I like the structure piece. I’m a process guy. I think I learned that just growing up emotionally in Alcoholics Anonymous, you know, those those 12 steps. So I think the first thing for me is to know my strengths and weaknesses right that I remove any temptation. So whatever my obstacle is, whatever it is I want to work on, and I need that discipline, I need to know what my strengths are, know what my weaknesses are, remove any obstacles.

Jimmy Durbin:

Um, so whether that’s if I’m trying to not do tobacco or alcohol or some other thing or not drink sodas, you know, it’s I won’t have my home like I set myself up for success.

Jimmy Durbin:

Then I agree. I have clear goals and a plan. And I lived a large chunk of my life not having a plan and just floating and not being reliable, you know, which makes me think about Brené Brown and her breathing acronym Boundaries is ah, is reliability. To me, reliability and, and discipline are connected. If I want to have a be in a meaningful relationship with whoever in my life.

Jimmy Durbin:

Part of that is that I have trust. So if I need to establish trust and the anatomy of trust is these boundaries, liabilities, accountability, the vault, integrity, nonjudgmental and generosity that I need to have, I need to be able to show up and do I have a plan and do I am I reliable and accountable to that plan.

Jimmy Durbin:

Um.

Brad Singletary:

If there’s no plan, you’re going to crash. If there’s no plan, you’re going to get lost. You’re going to, you’re going to fail in some way if you don’t even have a direction.

Jimmy Durbin:

I mean, I’m okay. Even if I’m a part of someone else’s plan, it’s when there is no there is no plan, I, I get myself in trouble.

Brad Singletary:

That’s it. That’s a cool thing. When I think about military stuff, if you see a helicopter or a jet or a boat in the water, they’re going somewhere. This they’re not just running around. This is there is a purpose even if it’s training, hopefully when we see that it’s only just training and not some crazy thing going on, but there’s a reason for there being in the sky.

Brad Singletary:

There’s a reason, right? There’s never not a purpose.

Jimmy Durbin:

What’s the difference between someone who actually makes it through boot camp and someone who doesn’t as it relates to discipline?

Stephen Mehling:

Now, the majority of the time, it’s all all psychological. Yeah. You know, people people that have the will to get to survive, the will to get through will get through people that give up. You know, and quite honestly, a lot of times the different branches of the service and certainly different specialty programs within the services, you know, are looking just for that.

Stephen Mehling:

You know, it’s especially noticeable in, you know, the high, extremely high performing specialties. Aviation is one, something like SEAL training is another, you know, Green Berets in the Army, those kinds of things. The Special Force Force Warriors, they’re looking for people that are going to in SEALs ring the bell. Then they’re and they’re going to tap out. And generally it has to do with the psychological aspect.

Stephen Mehling:

Very rarely is it the physiological. I mean, if you get hurt and you can’t complete the training generally they’ll they’ll retreads. Yeah. They’ll send you back through and you and you can go do it again. But psychologically, you just say, no, I’m not doing that anymore. And you go do something else.

Jimmy Durbin:

When an individual is operating at a high level psychologically.

Stephen Mehling:

Right.

Jimmy Durbin:

The tendency C is to numb or volume down the emotional piece is that true?

Stephen Mehling:

Maybe that’s I don’t I, I don’t know that I would agree with. Okay. I think, you know, if they’re, if they’re operating at a at a high level, you know, they may curb their emotions, but I think their emotions are always there because that’s part of their, their psyche, that’s part of the psychological piece aside, I don’t know that you know, they they they don’t have that that emotional intelligence, so to speak.

Jimmy Durbin:

And and you feel like there’s different tasks to do for the emotional discipline as well as the physical or psychological discipline or is that the same task, same actions across all three?

Stephen Mehling:

I personally think it’s the same. Okay. I don’t I don’t I don’t really I wouldn’t really differentiate it. It, you know, others might, but but for me and that may just be part of, you know, who I am. I mean, it’s always I’ve always been you know, focused. I use I use the analogy that goes all the way back.

Stephen Mehling:

I don’t know if you’ve ever seen the movie White Christmas, you know, with the Bing Crosby, but at the very, you know, early portion of of the movie, they’re talking about the general who’s, you know, been hurt. And he’s he’s going home. And later on in the movie, you know, you see him, they make a comment about we ate, then he ate we slept, then he slept, and then no one slept for four days, you know, and that was kind of the joke is they went through in the movie.

Stephen Mehling:

But the idea being is, you know, part and parcel of leadership is you got to take care of your people. And I think people that have that emotional intelligence as part of their ethos, who they are, I think tend to fare better because, you know, whether it be in the military or whether it be out in business, you know, good leaders are good leaders and good leaders take care of their people.

Stephen Mehling:

Because, you know, I was talking to somebody just the other day that their organization was having significant retention problems, you know, and the truth about, you know, management and leadership and business is people don’t leave bad jobs they leave bad bosses. You know, and and it’s those bad bosses that don’t take care of their people that, you know, that give them no incentive to leave because, you know, people will stick around through the tough times and get those bad jobs to become better jobs if they’ve got a good boss, if they’ve got good leadership, that’s, you know, that’s giving them the knowledge, skills, resources, training, etc. that they need in order to be able to be

Stephen Mehling:

successful in the future.

Jimmy Durbin:

So if some someone’s operating a high level and wants to level up your suggestions that relates to discipline would be to what, how how do we help that guy level up like as far as what he’s doing? Any suggestions or thoughts? I mean, I think about the different levels. Like if I’m in boot camp, but now I want to become a Navy SEAL.

Jimmy Durbin:

Both are going to have some discipline, but it seems like someone’s going to have to level up. And so for the audience that’s out there, that’s pretty disciplined, you know, like they’re how do we how do they level up? Like, what can they grasp from your lived experience and your wisdom of if this is way up, here’s how you level up.

Jimmy Durbin:

And then the other one is someone who doesn’t have any discipline. Where do they start? Like what? What are your suggestions? And I like your framework. You know, those four things. I was just curious as to like, I’m pretty disciplined, you know, I but I can always level up. I there’s mediocre in my life.

Stephen Mehling:

I would think, you know, from my perspective, what what I tend to look at is those four things key among them. Certainly is structure. You know, so how do how do I do things? When do I do things in a in a you know, and I guess maybe it’s the math major in me in a logical reasoned fashion in order to accomplish a certain set of goals that I’m looking for.

Stephen Mehling:

And if you’re completely on, you know, undisciplined and, you know, you start off by, you know, and baby steps, Brad and I have had this you know, had a discussion before, you know, Dave Ramsey fiscal discipline you know, it’s like Dave Ramsey, you know, his whole philosophy is built around the baby steps. And you start step one and you don’t do step two until you’re finished.

Stephen Mehling:

Step one, you don’t do step seven until you’ve done step six. And the reason that that it’s done that way is to provide you that structure. And it forces that discipline upon you in order to ultimately be successful.

Jimmy Durbin:

I love that. That’s I mean, whenever you’re and steps and numbers, I always have a smile on my face. It’s to me, the ultimate and the best example of cognitive behavioral therapy changed my thinking to change my behavior. That structure, you know, that the Dave Ramsey, the 12 Steps, Alcoholics Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous of just like, here’s how I, I need to create some discipline you know, for me, it’s at my bottom.

Jimmy Durbin:

I didn’t trust my word I’m not going to use today I would use so there’s this constant implosion of not me not trusting my word. Right. And so I think of Don Miguel and the four agreements and be impeccable with my word and that’s where I need to start. And so at the very beginning for me, it was I’m going to throw trash in the trash can put the shopping cart away and stand in line and and do those three things.

Jimmy Durbin:

And then once I did that over a month, I could start to begin to possibly trust my word that if I said something, I would do it.

Brad Singletary:

That totally makes sense. I think you’re all this is coming together for me. I’m learning from you guys about how to level up. And part of it is do the things that you already know you should do and do them well. Ed Millett, who’s a speaker in a, you know, influencer type, he talks about you got to keep promises to yourself.

Brad Singletary:

And if it’s putting the shopping cart away or waking up at the same time, brush your damn teeth in the morning, whatever thing that there is. Some say how you do anything is how you do everything. Others have argued that that’s not true or that that’s that can create a problem psychologically. But maybe there’s some truth to that.

Brad Singletary:

I have a client who they’re working on this couple. They’re hoarders. I mean, like the TV show. And one of the things that I’ve asked them to do is to clean out their.

Stephen Mehling:

Car.

Brad Singletary:

Because that’s a, you know, that’s 12 square feet compared to their large home that’s filled with things. And so starting small, taking the step by step. I think those things would would help to in just having a an objective or a goal I always you know, I know there’s a whole bunch of definitions of goal, objective strategy, whatever, but to to know where it is you’re headed.

Brad Singletary:

And I think I love what you mentioned earlier, Admiral, about the procedures and some of the checklists and some of those things are written in blood. Meaning meaning we know what doesn’t work. We know where you get into problems. Think about the 12 step program. And the reason I’m in the same I’m in AA myself and nowhere near along the way that like Jimmy has done with it.

Brad Singletary:

But the amount of time he’s had in but I hear people say don’t get ahead of yourself, do the first part and do it well and just take take the steps that are necessary. And that’s one way I think that’s one way to level up and and to get moving. I wanted to go back to what you were saying too about the emotional thing I’m picturing like, I don’t know, a helicopter pilot in a hurricane.

Brad Singletary:

And so, yes, you have your what did you call it, your structure or your, you know, the procedural steps and all those things. But, man, there’s got to be some being tuned in to your emotion. You got to be, I guess, aware of fear. You have to understand your frustration level. That’s a gauge, too. I tell guys all the time, read your gauges.

Brad Singletary:

You know, scale zero to ten. How upset are you right now? And so how does that kind of training go into with pilots or commanding a ship or whatever? Like, how do you how do how do you people with these high level responsibilities do not just procedural tasks, but also check in with how they’re feeling? As a great question you asked Jimmy.

Stephen Mehling:

Well, I think I guess probably the easiest way to answer that is kind of use an example many years ago, I was involved in a a rescue. It was a medevac rescue of someone who had been working in the forests in Oregon. And anyone who knows anything about, you know, forestry, a choker chain had slipped and a huge log had rolled them.

Stephen Mehling:

Oh, boy. And so they were in really bad shape. And the trip by land to get them back to the hospital was going to take hours because of where they were back in the woods by helicopter. If we could get to them, it was going to take less than 15 minutes from the time we actually got them aboard to get them back.

Stephen Mehling:

The only problem was, is the whole side of the mountain was covered in fog but we responded and we found an area near the top, the top of the area where they were logging that was open and you know, I put down one, you know, I put my crewman down and put him in the vehicles, could hear where we were through the fog and got back to you know, they sent one vehicle back to us and I put my my crewman in the vehicle and sent him down to the location of where the mishap had taken place.

Stephen Mehling:

And and he communicated by radio, you know, if we can get there, can we do anything? Can we get him out? And he said, yeah, absolutely. And we knew that, you know, there was a side of a mountain. And we could actually once we got the guy on board, we could actually go up into the fog away from the side of the mountain.

Stephen Mehling:

And it was an open area because we knew that what the terrain looked like, you know, under normal conditions. And so we went there and we got him. And the way we did it was we actually hover taxied following the tail lights of the pickup truck through the fog, through the, you know, the 200 foot fir trees just slightly above them, getting on scene and we eventually picked up the the injured person, got him on board, got him to the hospital, the hop from the hospital back to where our air station was, was probably 5 minutes.

Stephen Mehling:

Once he was at the hospital, we went to the air station, even though we were the crew on duty. I sent my crew home and I walked in to the operations officer and I said to the operations officer, I’ve just sent my crew home. I’m going home. We need to be relieved. We’ll talk about it tomorrow. At the time, as the as the mission was going on, you don’t let those kinds of things, you know, get to, you know, impact the mission because you go on training, you know, this is, you know, how to do X, Y, and Z, and you execute X, Y, and Z in a safe fashion.

Stephen Mehling:

And you kind of compartmentalize that emotion. But once the emotional situation was over, they weren’t going to be any good to the unit for the rest of the day until they got to decompress. I wasn’t going to be any good to the unit for the rest of the day. And so I got to decompress and having good bosses, my boss knew that, you know what?

Stephen Mehling:

He just looked at me and he said, go home. You know, I’ve got it. You know, you know, whether it’s going to be me that flies the next time the you know, the alarm goes off or somebody, you know, I get get another crew. And it was during the daytime at this point. So there were other crews available.

Stephen Mehling:

But he realized and he was a good boss, too. So you know, good leadership skills. And so so we went home. But but yeah, you you do have that emotion that creeps in. But, you know, in, in the in the throes of battle, so to speak, you compartmentalize an awful lot of that. And it’s usually after the fact and you see that a lot.

Stephen Mehling:

You know, even nowadays, as guys who have been, you know, over during Iraqi freedom, Enduring Freedom, the first Gulf War, the second Gulf War, Vietnam, etc., etc., you know, where they’ve you know, they during the throes of battle, executed the mission, did their job. But now a lot of those guys are are and some of them even today, you know, the Vietnam vets, some of them today are still struggling with, you know, PTSD because of things they did and things they, you know, they saw and things they had to do in order to execute the mission.

Stephen Mehling:

But at the time, they they they did their job. They did it well. And they compartmentalize that emotion in order to accomplish the greater good, I guess, for lack of a better time.

Jimmy Durbin:

So in that example, where someone is still struggling with, as you said, the PTSD versus the scenario that you gave with your story and and your realization and sending people home and kind of decompressing. So am I assuming the first example they just didn’t get the time wasn’t created, the system wasn’t there in order to metabolize that energy out of their body versus what you’ve you know, that’s that’s a really healthy system.

Jimmy Durbin:

So where I go is if I’m not in that cycle, if I don’t have that structure in my life, if I hold it in as a man and it’s still compartmentalized, and I don’t have access to all of my emotions because I’m still compartmentalized, how how can self-discipline help that individual?

Stephen Mehling:

Well, we actually formalized it in the Coast Guard. We uh, we took advantage of of some of the systems that the academics had developed. And a lot of it was geared toward fire. Firemen, paramedics, etc. And we use critical incident stress management. And, you know, we would send some of our own members off to system training and we would do debriefings and defuzing us depending upon the level of the critical incident, to make sure that our people did stay healthy.

Stephen Mehling:

Because if you don’t take care of your people who are your greatest resource, you know, when you when you need to accomplish a mission, they’re not going to be there because they’re going to have those kinds of stress induced issues Mm hmm.

Brad Singletary:

A lot of that, from what I understand, to the critical incident, stress debriefings, ah, stress. What was the other system that the critical incident stress management?

Stephen Mehling:

Management.

Brad Singletary:

A lot of that has to do with description of the events. It has to do with talking. Tell me what happened. What were you thinking? How did you feel and coming back to a plan of, like, self-care and, and, and really and that’s in 30 seconds. That’s what I know about that stuff, is that it’s basically I take it out of the compartmentalized place and describe what’s happened to you and how you’ve experienced it.

Brad Singletary:

Put some form to it, put some structure in some words and a description into the thing, and then talk about how it affects you emotionally. And then let’s, you know, bring it back up to the plan. Now, how do you take care of yourself from here? And so I love. That’s great. That’s great. I didn’t know that you did that.

Stephen Mehling:

Yeah, a lot. A lot of times a lot of times the individual doesn’t even realize it’s happening. I just recently a friend of mine’s daughter and she’s 18 years old I think now she doesn’t have her driver’s license. She finally got her learner’s permit, but she’s really been hesitant about getting a driver’s license. And it wasn’t until she was in a a college psych class.

Stephen Mehling:

She’s in a psych class now. That one of the questions that the the instructor asks, is anyone ever seen a human brain? And she raised her hand. She was the only person in the class. It raised her hand. Her parents weren’t aware. No one was aware. But the reason that she had seen a human brain is she had witnessed an automobile accident and the person had been severely injured, obviously killed.

Stephen Mehling:

But she had seen parts of human remains. She human brain tissue, you know, on the on the asphalt. And she had so compartmentalized that that she didn’t talk to anyone about it, but it was keeping her from wanting to be a driver because she had she had experienced that or seen what the impact of doing the wrong thing in a car could could result in.

Brad Singletary:

Wow. That’s fascinating. It’s interesting where our discussion has gone a little bit tonight. Talking about some of the feelings. You know, discipline really does have a lot to do with behavior and steps and movements. And procedures, rituals. But we’ve talked a lot about I guess you get to social workers and the father of a social worker.

Stephen Mehling:

We’re going to talk about feeling and feelings here.

Brad Singletary:

So that’s so important. I mean, when you and the discipline, when you talk about the training in these difficult situations, people are able to perform them because of their consistency. So they’re handling the emotion. When you’re on the side of the mountain, in the fog, rescuing a person in need, you’re able to do that because of the continuous training, the consistency, your discipline.

Brad Singletary:

And then afterward we do the self-care and we’re knocking off and we’re going home for the day and whatever we need to do to process those feelings. I wanted to go to some a couple some more specific things. We’ve been kind of talking in generalities, but in our read nine, we talk about the, the the step of discipline or the characteristic discipline.

Brad Singletary:

The idea is that the man lives a life of self-control. And so I want to talk about ways that things that have been helpful for you to master your time, your money, your environment, your mood, your actions and your results. And maybe we may not even need to talk about results because if we handle all those other things, is life.

Jimmy Durbin:

As a result?

Stephen Mehling:

Yeah. The amazing human. Yes, life is the result.

Brad Singletary:

But so in for both of you. But I guess you’ve lived a little longer than both of us here, Admiral. What has helped you to become the master of your time? And if any of these you don’t feel like you are the master of that, that’s okay, too, because you’re human.

Stephen Mehling:

But why don’t know that. I don’t know that anyone has ever the master of any of these things. I mean, we’re all you know, we’re all just doing the best we can to continue to move forward and, you know, continuous improvement. You know, that’s kind of the nature of, you know, when I when I was doing total quality management, you know, that’s, you know, the whole idea was, you know, if if it’s not broke, you might want to break it and make it better.

Stephen Mehling:

You know? But the whole idea of, you know, of, you know, continually improving a process when I was thinking about this because, you know, we got a little bit of a heads up of what you might ask us, you know, and I’ve already used my big bullet for time. And that’s you either have a plan or you’re part of somebody else’s.

Stephen Mehling:

I mean, I think it’s really important that you have a plan of what you’re going to do. You set goals for yourself. You set intermediate steps or goals in order to accomplish that. You know, time management is is a goal. You know, that is you know, that is how you get things done. You don’t you know, you don’t waste, you know, opportunity is and by not wasting opportunities, that certainly is is valuable.

Stephen Mehling:

You know, time. It’s like, you know, you know, we three being here tonight you know, having this discussion, you know, if nothing were ever, ever to come out of it, it really would just be a waste of time. So I, I find it very valuable. And that’s one of the reasons why I was more than willing to come in and, you know, sit here with you guys tonight was, you know, because this will go out and hopefully the the limited insights that I can provide, you know, can prove beneficial to somebody else down the road.

Brad Singletary:

Well, talking about time, you know, the map of your time, I guess, is your calendar or your schedule. I joked earlier about how Admiral Hair was you know, we tried to get him going and says, yep, nope, can’t do it. Then I have we’re cruisin to the Bahamas or.

Stephen Mehling:

We can we can’t do that.

Brad Singletary:

We have we have this trip planned or. Oh, no. And as we look at dates, we’ve been working at this for 90 days. We’ve been trying to do this. And and then he said, Oh, the Pro Bowl. And still that to me is he has a flight plan for his time. He knows what he’s doing pretty much on any given day.

Brad Singletary:

He knows when he plays golf, when he has dinner with his friends, when he’s going on a date with his wife, when the grandkids are in town. And what, you know, he so to be in control, to be the pilot of your time means I guess that you have a schedule. You’re saying we have a plan or otherwise you’re part of someone else’s.

Brad Singletary:

So I love that you go to your phone and you know what’s going on and you put it there. Maybe maybe the missus puts things in there, too.

Stephen Mehling:

We share a calendar okay. But we share.

Brad Singletary:

So there’s communication. There’s write it down. There is compare it to what is going on. If it’s just the if if you it if there isn’t something written down, I just I’m feeling the value of use a calendar use schedule, put something in that block of time. I bet we could ask you what you’re doing on a typical, you know, any day of the week and there’s some structure to it for you.

Brad Singletary:

You work out in the mornings or. Sure. Afternoon.

Stephen Mehling:

Yeah I’m a morning workout person.

Brad Singletary:

Work out in the mornings. You know what days you have your you’ve talked about some dinner groups and some friends that you would get together share on certain intervals. And you know when those are and I don’t know if these are like Coast Guard friends or people that, you know from other parts of your life. But there’s a kind of a schedule.

Stephen Mehling:

Sure. Goes back to college days you know at the academy I believe coach Dennis is now long since passed away but he was the swimming coach at the academy but one of the things he also did was he taught the diving class and one of the things that they teach every scuba diver is plan your dove and dove your plan.

Stephen Mehling:

And if you plan your dove and dove your plan, you will never have an issue. But if you don’t plan your dove or if you don’t dove your plan, that’s how people get killed. They end up getting the bends, nitrogen narcosis or something else happens to them. And so I think that’s part of the scheduling and time management.

Stephen Mehling:

And, you know, maybe, yeah, coincidentally, I picked that up from Charlie Dennis. God, you know, God rest his soul, you know, when I was, you know, in in his dove, you know, in a scuba diving class, you know, 50 years ago.

Brad Singletary:

Wow.

Brad Singletary:

I am. I’m just learning so much here, you guys. This is, this is one of my favorite conversations ever. What about money? You know, you’re a retired person. You’re doing well. You’re traveling all over the world. You’re you know, some things about money. And just behaviorally, I don’t know. Jimmy, both of you how can a man being in charge be the master of his money?

Jimmy Durbin:

Oh, go ahead, Admiral.

Stephen Mehling:

Oh, yeah. Well, I mentioned Dave Ramsey earlier. I’ve been a Dave Ramsey fan since probably the early nineties, listening. You know, listening to, you know, recordings of his of his broadcast. I’m a, you know, a true believer, but I’m also a true believer in something. Remember, I mentioned earlier about the round to it. Get around.

Brad Singletary:

To it. Yeah.

Stephen Mehling:

You know, and the story that goes behind the round to it is a story that was told called The Richest Man, The Richest Man in Babylon. And the story of the richest man man in Babylon is if you want to be the richest man in Babylon, remember that a 10th of all you earn is yours to keep him.

Stephen Mehling:

You know, now we you know, we talk about earning things we talk about tithing to churches for those of us that are, you know, associated with, you know, religious organizations, etc. But if you think about a 10th of all you earn, you know, you earn $100, you take $10, you put it put it away, you know, and eventually, you know, whether it be a mutual fund, start off with a savings account, you know, however you want to do it.

Stephen Mehling:

But if you start off early and remember that a 10th of all you earn is yours to keep you will be the richest man in Babylon. Because, you know, as Dave Ramsey likes to say, if you live like no one else, you’ll then be able to live like no one else.

Brad Singletary:

Right. That’s a sizable amount. If you think about whoever you are listening to this show, think about what your monthly income is or your annual salary and what you bring home. Imagine what 10% of that would be compounded over the next 30 years of your life. Yeah, it’s probably going to you’re going to do well for yourself. And I think that’s one of those areas and I’m this is why this topic.

Brad Singletary:

I’m not teaching anything. I’m just asking the questions. But I think this is one of the areas where men struggle the most is I don’t know. I guess some percentage of guys are good with their management of their resources, but so many are just blowing money on things that are just unnecessary to completely just frivolous spending. And it’s, you know, and then they’re in trouble later in life when they really have nothing.

Brad Singletary:

I’ve seen that so many times, even in my own family and, and friends that I know that. And it’s difficult to do but 10% while the richest man about one. That’s a book.

Stephen Mehling:

Yes. I yeah. I think I think it’s a I don’t know whether it’s a book or, you know, a pamphlet or a parable. But but it’s out there in publication. The richest man in Babylon, a 10th of all your own is yours, too, Coop.

Brad Singletary:

How about you, Jimmy? Thoughts on being a master of money. You make it you’re making it big time in the world of social workers.

Stephen Mehling:

Social workers are rolling.

Brad Singletary:

In the dough. I tell you that.

Jimmy Durbin:

Self-discipline means I pay myself first. Um, you know, I. Part of what fueled my addiction for a decade was I just had the financial wherewithal and so I. I blew through that and then stalled to support my habit. And the financial. So it’s the same thing, right? I think Brad, like, whether it’s finances or emotions or psychological, physical emotional, mental, intellectual, we all have our strengths and weaknesses.

Jimmy Durbin:

And so I think across the board, at least for me, it’s that asking for help a piece is admitting that this is a weakness, that I actually ask another man, you know, can you help me with this? Leveling of my ego and my pride and so I know through recovery and working those steps and having a discipline through that process that, A, it’s all it’s always okay for me to take a self-assessment and just take an inventory and not from a right or wrong, good or bad or shame or anything other than just this is what is is and I needed and wanted to learn more about my finances this year.

Jimmy Durbin:

And so I just got done taking a four week course with my wife to help restructure and just kind of clarify. And I don’t have any emotion today, you know, as a 54 year old man asking for help. But my 30 year old self would have never I got to I’ll figure it out. I’m too much put on me.

Jimmy Durbin:

Yeah I’m just going to ego pride and and it, it works so much better for me whenever I’m willing just to kind of humble myself and ask for help.

Brad Singletary:

You mentioned vulnerability. We talked about courage before. And nowadays are the generations our age, I guess, and younger are. It’s easier for men to talk about their situations, their feelings. I do. Some men’s groups have for men’s groups and people told me that was dumb to start that because men will talk. Well, yes, they will. But when I think about exposure and vulnerability and stuff like that, I picture one of these days, maybe I’m going to do this in my groups or guys who need this kind of thing in particular to say, pull up your pull up your bank statement bring it, you want it, you want to grow, show what you’re doing, you want to

Brad Singletary:

be better, you know you want to lose weight will get on the scale and show it to your trainer. You you want you want to do better financially. You’re not making ends meet. You still live with your mom and dad. You’re 40 years old. Let’s look at what you do with what you do. Have. And boy, I think that would be I think a man would rather stand naked in front of other men than he would to show his show, his financial situation.

Brad Singletary:

But I love what we’re talking about is you have to be willing to, whether it’s Dave Ramsey or Suzy Orman or whoever the hell. I mean, there’s a million programs, but attach yourself to some wisdom somewhere and let people into your situation. I was at a place after my divorce. I was at a point where I was single dad.

Brad Singletary:

I was working two jobs. I had my my kids five days a week. I couldn’t pay my electric bill. And so I went to my I went to my church and I said, hey, I’m in a bad situation. I can’t pay my electric bill. You know, I’ve paid tithes my whole life. Is there something that is there some help I could get?

Brad Singletary:

And they said, well, sure, let’s just go over your budget. Let’s see what you’re spending your money on. And so it was a very humbling process, but it was the most one of the most important things that I’ve ever done is to say, here’s my last 30 days. You know, my bank this is my bank record for the last 30 days.

Brad Singletary:

And this person was actually happened to be worked in accounting and they helped me see where I was really making some dumb decisions with with my money. Let’s talk about environment. I picture that both of your homes are I can just tell I don’t know how I know this, but they’re beautifully maintained. Your vehicles are clean. What is the importance of mains painting being the master of your environment, which to me means your stuff.

Brad Singletary:

Talk about discipline and the power of maintaining your environment. What is a what is the deck of a cutter look like?

Stephen Mehling:

Oh, very squared away.

Brad Singletary:

Yes, squared away.

Stephen Mehling:

You know, and this goes, if you want to change the world, make your bed, you know, and you know, that kind of a thing. But, you know, when I was thinking environment, I was kind of thinking of something a little bit different and maybe environment. Yeah. Maybe it’s, you know, not the physical environment, but, you know, I was thinking that more of the environment of association oh.

Brad Singletary:

And like friendships and things.

Stephen Mehling:

Well, well, you know, and if you go back and you look at a lot of the studies and things, people will tend to turn out to be like the people with whom they associate. So if you want to be successful in business, associate with people who are successful in business. If you want to be sober.

Brad Singletary:

Better know some sober folks.

Stephen Mehling:

You know, associate with sober folks don’t associate with people that are, you know, going to the bar every day. Drug addictions, the same way it applies in sports relationships, just about anything, you know, that you will turn out to be like the people that you associate with. So when you were talking about leveling up level up, your friends that’s great.

Brad Singletary:

I never even so I wrote this read 92 or three years ago and just stayed about to be the master of your environment. And to me, it was the physical. I, we just we just leveled Admiral here, leveled me up right now to help me understand that this is about the energy that you allow into your circle and the and the people, the influences.

Brad Singletary:

That’s, that’s amazing. Yes.

Jimmy Durbin:

We can remove obstacles you know, remove the temptations. So I yeah, I appreciate that because I go to what is my environment you know, I do I work with people that hear voices and there’s a 15 to 20% of the general population of people hear voices and most of us work in concert with our voice. The research is only one to 2% come in contact with psychiatric intervention now whether you call that voice conscience or God or spirit or, you know, whatever label you want to use, I just know that unless I have a series of actions and I have the discipline to think about my intellect, my spiritual ness, my emotional like those environments as

Jimmy Durbin:

well. When I’m not disciplined, it’s because there’s a lot of static and noise upstairs. The committee in my head is really loud and so the what discipline do I have to to address that? So environments, I think of all that intellectual, mental, spiritual all emotional and my physical.

Brad Singletary:

You blow my mind on this because I, I literally maybe I just don’t understand the English language, but what I pictured for me environment was your stuff. You know, if you’re driving around in your vehicle and there’s 16, you know, cheeseburger wrappers and you can’t, you know, you get your clothes are stained up every time you get in your own vehicle or your home is so chaotic that you can’t ever find anything.

Brad Singletary:

That’s what I thought of about environment. But I think it’s so much more than just that the deck is clean and the and everything is squared away. That’s a term that’s it that’s important to you really. Do they really say that?

Stephen Mehling:

Absolutely.

Brad Singletary:

Squared away means.

Stephen Mehling:

Square squared away means there’s a place for everything and everything’s in its place okay?

Brad Singletary:

So everything can be squared away, including our, our environment, the atmosphere that we allow, the atmosphere, the places we go, people, places and things. Right. Jimmy?

Jimmy Durbin:

Yeah, very cool. And again, I fall back into what is the, what process, what steps what’s the structure, right? And if for me, it’s not about having a balance in all those areas, it’s creating harmony, right? I’m not going to be I’m not perfect in all those areas, but I have a process as part of my self-discipline to take an inventory of all those areas that we just talked about where my strengths were, my weaknesses, where do I need to level up?

Jimmy Durbin:

How can I play what I’m currently doing, those transferable skills into other areas where I feel like I do need to level up, but that takes having a plan, right? And having daily habits and creating an action series of actions. Regardless of how I feel like it, it’s all connected.

Brad Singletary:

That’s something that I was fascinated by when I got into AA was the some of the ritual, you know, like the on awakening is one of the little readings. It’s about a half a page or a paragraph or two about an awakening you go through and you kind of have this little prayer. And then and then upon retiring, you go through this these steps.

Brad Singletary:

Have I, you know, harmed anyone? Have I said things that I regret or I need to, you know, have a hurt someone or whatever? So there is in all of everything from military operations to the the alcoholic who’s trying to get his life in order, discipline is a core issue here. Just one more, maybe two more here. Things I want to talk about.

Brad Singletary:

What about mood? We could probably have a whole show on how to master your mood. But I’m curious, maybe specifically you hear, Admiral, about gosh, I guess you’ve probably gone through all kinds of things. I mean, you’ve moved around the country.

Stephen Mehling:

19.00

Brad Singletary:

Times, 19 times. You’ve moved you’ve had you’ve got children, grandchildren. You’ve been married for how many years? 41 41 years.

Stephen Mehling:

Three 42.

Brad Singletary:

This summer you’re one of what, a couple dozen of these rear admirals. You know, your, your role is your high level leader. How in the world does a man master his mood?

Stephen Mehling:

Well, I kind of combined, you know, when when we talked about time, money, environment, the other three were mood actions and results, okay. And I kind of combined them when I when I was thinking about.

Brad Singletary:

Them and lead actions and results.

Stephen Mehling:

Mood actions and results. And the first thing I thought about is I’ve always tried to live by the axiom of what some people commonly call the serenity prayer. Oh, yes. You know, God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference.

Brad Singletary:

Yes, sir.

Stephen Mehling:

You know, and I’ve found that for me, that kind of gives me inner peace because, you know, there’s going to be some things you just can’t change and you then have to make a decision either to move on or to accept things the way they are, because you’re never going to be out. It’s outside of your ability to control.

Stephen Mehling:

It might be because of a higher power and might be because of the environment whatever it might be. But also along that line, you know that the last piece of it, the wisdom to know the difference. One of the things that I’ve been a very strong proponent of in talking with my subordinates throughout the years and I was in the military, I was in uniform for 39 years on active duty for 35 and during, during that period of time, the difference between knowledge and wisdom, the wisdom to know the difference and the way I think about it is knowledge is what you get from going to school, reading a book and living your life and making

Stephen Mehling:

mistakes you know, and learning from, you know, the school of hard knocks, so to speak. Wisdom is learning from other people’s mistakes. And I want people to be wise. I don’t want them to have to duplicate those, you know, those same lessons that somebody else has already experienced. And that’s why I think, you know, the Alpha Quorum and these podcasts are so important to guys out there is because it gives them an opportunity, whether it be for me, or Jimmy or you or any of your other guests to garner that wisdom so that they don’t then have to go out and make those same mistakes in order to get the knowledge Wow.

Brad Singletary:

That’s great. So mood actions, results, you’re seeing those is connected. It has to do with what you can control, what you don’t control. I think I would say for sure for me, mood and I guess actions often follow feelings for me. I as I work with people in like mental health, I see two things getting in the way of mood.

Brad Singletary:

Sometimes mood is affected by physiology you know, if you’re hungry. I love the Snickers commercial. Remember those. If you’re not, you get hangry. Can be you know, you got to you got to take a dump and or you’re hungry. Sometimes it’s physiological, but sometimes it’s a matter of what you expect, what you’re demanding of the world and of people and of yourself.

Brad Singletary:

And then after the thing happens, after the triggering occurs, it’s how you interpret what happens. What does this mean about me and what does this say about this person or our relationship that gets into trouble? Jimmy Mood, how do you how does a man master his mood and maybe actions and.

Jimmy Durbin:

Yeah, I mean, I like I appreciate what both of you said. I, I love the Serenity Prayer. There’s also some inherent things that are built into that, right? That I have a higher power, some faith, something I lean into in the absence of factual intellectual information. And that’s a that takes work, you know, having spirituality I need to define what spirituality is for me and Brad needs to define what spirituality is for Brad.

Jimmy Durbin:

And the admiral needs to define what spirituality is for him. And I’m of the school that I don’t think anyone should tell anyone what spirituality is, how it’s connected, to how one gets disconnected and how one gets reconnected. And that’s your work. That’s the man’s work. We can guide and we can coach and we can counsel. We can get curious and ask questions and explore and mentor and all those wonderful things, which is why the three of us are here tonight.

Jimmy Durbin:

And so in that mood, in hitting the pause button, you know, in the self evaluation of how I’m feeling, having body awareness sensations, noticing feelings, being able to identify. Like there’s a lot of information just in that construct of you know, finding a series of actions and or God grant me the serenity. And so all of those things take self-discipline, all of those things need to be seen brought into awareness, understood, written down imagery of like, what does an individual, what do you as a man want in your life?

Jimmy Durbin:

And finding those actions, you know, the I love what the admiral said as far as determination compassion, honor, courage and repetition. You know, for me, that’s living in steps ten, 11 and 12 continue to take a personal inventory when I’m wrong, promptly admit it. That encapsulates determination and having compassion right. The empathy piece. Step 11 continue to improve my conscious contact with God through prayer and meditation, seeking for his will and the knowledge to carry that out.

Jimmy Durbin:

That takes honor, it takes courage, it takes termination, you know, and then repetition and repetition. Absolutely. And and and then step 12, having had a spiritual awakening, right? That’s the gift. That’s the promise. And I would even frame it with discipline. That’s that is the promise. That’s what you’re hearing from us tonight, is finding those series of actions, finding what makes you tick, what gets you up, and being dedicated to that.

Jimmy Durbin:

The promises you’ll have, the spiritual awakening, you’ll realize the goal, you’ll overcome the task, you’ll get to the top of the mountain, as a result of the self-discipline, in this case, these 12 steps. And then the second part and share this message with others right and I think that’s where Admiral I just appreciate a one you as a man who’s willing and knows his emotions and can articulate your feelings and structured in the military and being of service to our country.

Jimmy Durbin:

And protecting, I stand on your shoulders, you know, as a younger man, as someone else who wants to teach men, is committed to that. Thank you. It’s it it’s refreshing. Like it brings me hope right in and to see you dedicated and to come down and share your experience and how you connect the dots what a gift and what it gives.

Jimmy Durbin:

So thank you.

Stephen Mehling:

I appreciate that. And I’m a firm believer that we stand on the shoulders of those who have come before us and I think it’s very, very important for four guys who have lived their lives or a portion of their lives, you know, to share those experiences. So that, you know, other people can be wise, too.

Jimmy Durbin:

So I have a question for you. If you could write a letter to yourself, 30 years younger so you have you know, you’re 60, you have all this wisdom and knowledge. And if you could write or tell yourself you know, what you’ve learned over the last year at the age of 30 would be what probably relationships.

Stephen Mehling:

Because remember, I was in the military in uniform for 39 years. And one of the big things about the military is there’s a hierarchy and there’s orders and there’s tact, there’s, you know, there’s doctrine, there’s tactics, techniques, procedures, you know, etc. etc. That doesn’t apply when you’re outside the military. So from a relationship standpoint, it’s real important that you know how to separate yourself from the military work environment and you know the relationship environment.

Stephen Mehling:

You know, outside of the military that that’s the biggest thing that that I’ve learned, you know, in the seven years that I’ve been retired is that, you know, there’s there’s there’s a difference. And, you know, anybody who’s ever come home who’s who’s in a relationship and tried to direct their significant other. Right, you know, to do something well, quickly learn that doesn’t work.

Brad Singletary:

Mrs. Bailey probably has some stories for us on that stuff. I remember talking Mike talking about that at one time that, you know, work is always used. Most work situations are pretty binary. I think probably with the military stuff, it’s it is a yes or no on or off black and white. That’s it. And though structure and order and I’m above you and you’re beneath me.

Brad Singletary:

And this is the the order of operations and there’s no questioning.

Jimmy Durbin:

Yeah.

Brad Singletary:

And that you can’t it can’t operate that way when you’re talking about your children or your, you know, your wife, your significant other. That’s great that you’ve you pointed that out because so much of this we’re it’s a tough discipline. We’re talking about toughness in a way. And Jimmy said, what would you do? 30 years, you know, what would you talk about?

Brad Singletary:

And you’re you’re really talking about tenderness. So you got to be tough.

Jimmy Durbin:

Compassion, peace.

Brad Singletary:

Commanding a ship when you’re commanding an operation it’s international stuff going on and you are at home. You can’t be tough that way. It’s not the same kind of tough and the tenderness maybe is what I’m kind of hearing you say.

Stephen Mehling:

Yeah, well, even and even at work, you know, even even in a military structure, it is absolutely incumbent on the senior to to solicit feedback and comment from the subordinate because if the best the best leaders will do that you know and another adage I like to use a lot is if everybody’s thinking the same thing, somebody is not thinking, you know, you get into that group, that kind of thing.

Stephen Mehling:

And and it’s very easy to get there if you’re in that insulated environment where everybody you know, oh, yes, sir, oh, yes, ma’am, whatever it might be in the structure because they’re afraid to get feedback or, you know, someone’s not willing to say, you know, and that idea is really stupid.

Brad Singletary:

Stinks.

Stephen Mehling:

Yeah. Yeah. It’s a really dumb idea. But, you know, you do that in a in a collaborative way, but also in the military, you realize that. Okay. And I used to tell this to my to my folks all the time. If you give me good information, I’ll give you a good decision. If you give me a bad information, I’ll give you a bad decision.

Stephen Mehling:

But if a decision needs to be made because of the exigent circumstances of the time, I will give you a decision because that’s the worst thing you can do is the people just out there hanging.

Brad Singletary:

So I want to wrap this up, but I guess I have 11 last question. And as I have worked on my style here, I guess in and in like hosting these shows, what I want to do is look at the opposite side of things at the end and what is the side effect, what are some problems that come with being highly disciplined?

Brad Singletary:

So maybe there’s a man who wants to get himself to the gym and get a structure and get his life in order and manage his money and budget everything and and handle his business and get be squared away in every aspect, even spirituality. That was fascinating, by the way, when you said Jimmy, when you said spirituality requires work, you can’t just be a hippie and feel good.

Brad Singletary:

You got to do some things.

Jimmy Durbin:

That can that can be part of it.

Stephen Mehling:

Jimmy needed to be Jimmy the hippie in the early but.

Brad Singletary:

But all this takes work. What are these side effects? What is the what are the dangers of being too structured to too rigid.

Stephen Mehling:

From my perspective, I think if you’re too structured and too rigid and not willing to accept feedback and input, you miss opportunities now. And that certainly applies in business. It absolutely applies when you’re talking about money and in the military. Yeah. I mean, there’s you know, there’s uh, if you develop a battle plan, you know, there’s the plan and then there’s what they call branches and sequels to the plan.

Stephen Mehling:

You know, all these branches to come off and, you know, the sequel and, and the folks will tell you that, you know, in a, in a combat situation, all plans are valid until the first shots fired, you know, and then, you know, they kind of the original plan a lot of times will go out the window and you’re already into branches and sequels.

Stephen Mehling:

So you have to be disciplined. Yes. But you have to be flexible at the same time as well.

Brad Singletary:

Be able to pivot and change drastically, change your change the course of wherever you’re headed. Maybe that needs to change. So I really appreciate you being here. I just this has been fascinating and we I’ve enjoyed it. You know, I just we want to increase the quality of our of our guests. And, you know, you’re pretty much up there.

Brad Singletary:

You’re helping us level up, just your expertize, your experience, your maturity, what you’ve taught here. And I love when you mentioned this as an opportunity for men to learn from, learn wisdom from others, to hear what some things that work and that don’t work. Appreciate you being here, Jimmy.

Stephen Mehling:

Any words? Yeah.

Jimmy Durbin:

No, just yeah. Just to thank you. It’s been a pleasure. I really appreciate, you know, what I kind of said earlier, so.

Brad Singletary:

Yeah, thank you. Appreciate it. All right, you guys. Until next time. No excuses, Alpha.

Outro:

Gentlemen, you are the Alpha, and this is the Alpha Quorum.

 

Click your podcast platform below or listen to the embedded file on this page.

085: SQUARED AWAY – Alpha Discipline with RADM Stephen  Mehling

086: INFLUENCE – Alpha Discipline with Ryan Echols

086: INFLUENCE – Alpha Discipline with Ryan Echols

Our guest today has been a counselor in a correctional facility for 21 years. Several years before he started, he was an inmate there, serving 14 months for violent crimes as a juvenile. He paid off $33,000 in restitution by working in the kitchen. He didn’t meet his biological father until he was 15. Three weeks later, his stepfather died by suicide. This led him to years of anger and violence. Once he was locked up, he learned how to deal with his emotions from men he didn’t want to disappoint.

He read spiritual texts, competed in sports, and learned to meditate. He was the first inmate in this prison to later return and work there, continuing the influence he was shown decades before. He is now very close with his father. He and his wife have a blended family of 8 children and he enjoys weightlifting, mixed martial arts and was recently in an episode of the hit show, Yellowstone.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

 

00:00:00:01 – 00:00:24:04
Brad Singletary
Our guest today has been a counselor in a juvenile correctional facility for 21 years. Several years before he started, he was an inmate there serving 14 months for violent crimes. He paid off $33,000 in restitution by working in the kitchen. He didn’t meet his biological father until he was 15. Three weeks later, his step father died by suicide.

00:00:25:02 – 00:00:45:11
Brad Singletary
This led him to years of anger and violence once he was locked up. He learned how to deal with his emotions from men. He didn’t want to disappoint. He read spiritual texts, competed in sports, and learned to meditate. He was the first inmate in this prison to later return and work there, continuing the influence he was shown decades before.

00:00:46:09 – 00:00:58:07
Brad Singletary
He’s now very close with his father. He and his wife have a blended family of eight children, and he enjoys weightlifting, mixed martial arts and was recently in an episode of the hit show Yellowstone.

00:01:10:01 – 00:01:31:02
Intro
If you’re a man that controls his own destiny, a man that is always in the pursuit of being better, you are in the right place. You are responsible. You are strong. You are a leader. You are a force. For good, gentlemen. You are the Alpha. And this is the Alpha Quorum.

00:01:39:02 – 00:01:59:01
Brad Singletary
Welcome back to the Alpha Quorum Show. Brad Singletary here, you guys. I’m super excited today. Our guest is Ryan Echols, and he’s going to introduce himself here in just a minute. But I’ve been I’ve known this guy for about over 20 years. 20, 21 years. We worked together in a place, and he’s going to talk about that in a little bit.

00:01:59:01 – 00:02:22:11
Brad Singletary
But his upbringing, his his adolescence, his young adult life and his life now all really have some interesting things woven into it. Our topic is discipline. We’ve been doing this series on the Red Nine, and this one is about a man who lives a life of self-control. And we don’t always do that, but sometimes we have to learn by difficult experience.

00:02:22:11 – 00:02:44:10
Brad Singletary
And I’m sure we’ll hear some of those stories today. But so this is a man who lives a life under control. He controls himself. He dominates himself. He’s the master of his time is money, is environment, is mood. His actions. And of course, what follows all those things is results. And here’s a guy who’s just done some really cool things.

00:02:44:10 – 00:03:06:13
Brad Singletary
I’ll let him introduce some of that He seems to be pretty humble in his older age here. So I hope you’ll brag a little bit on yourself, Ryan. Tell us just a little bit about your your life and what all you’ve been through to get to this point, and especially as it relates to discipline and, you know, problems you’ve overcome and things like that.

00:03:06:13 – 00:03:09:03
Brad Singletary
And we’ll just let you go at this for a little while here.

00:03:09:04 – 00:03:38:13
Ryan Echols
All right. We’ll see if I can nail that one. This is good introduction. I appreciate it. So like I said, Ryan Echols live in Plains City, Utah. You and I worked together at Mill Creek at a youth lockup facility. That’s where we met is a that’s one of those situations where I was introduced. I was the first person to be in that place and have been able to go back and work in.

00:03:40:09 – 00:03:44:01
Brad Singletary
So you were a resident as a kid. You were. This is a.

00:03:44:08 – 00:04:01:02
Ryan Echols
Yeah. So, yeah, I was a kid my senior year of high school, beginning my senior year high school. I got in a fight and somebody got injured and I ended up being sent there. I spent my senior year. I spent 14 months in lockup and.

00:04:02:11 – 00:04:07:03
Brad Singletary
That must have been a pretty serious fight to get that kind of you must have done some damage there.

00:04:07:03 – 00:04:25:06
Ryan Echols
It was like, yeah, cost me about 30 grand in restitution. But yeah, it was, oh my gosh. I mean it would, it was a fight. I mean, any time a fight happens, something bad can happen, which is, you know, when we’re talking about discipline that goes back to the exact same thing. I didn’t have discipline at that point in my life.

00:04:25:06 – 00:04:47:11
Ryan Echols
I was a little wild, little crazy time I was crazy. But, you know, as had a single mom raised, you know, a mom was an amazing woman. She, you know, she she worked her, worked her ass off to make sure that we had power, we had food, we had all those things. But it was just, you know, as a young man.

00:04:47:11 – 00:05:08:10
Ryan Echols
And I think why as a man, I do what I do now. And why I’m the father of this, because I didn’t have that. I didn’t have a man to show me how to be the man I should be. Right. And so by the time I was 16, 17, I thought for sure that I was going to be in prison like everybody else that was doing things that I was doing wrong.

00:05:08:10 – 00:05:33:08
Ryan Echols
And then I got sent to prison. I got sent to the place where we were and there were some amazing men there that literally changed my life. I had men that I knew for a fact that I thought going into that place, I was the baddest person walking the planet at 60. I was a big kid at 16, 1700 and £80 or 16, 17 years old, and I thought I was way better than I really was.

00:05:35:13 – 00:05:58:12
Ryan Echols
You know, the guys were like, There’s plenty of guys that you work with that were there when I was there that I had no intentions of upsetting or not. So and those guys took an interest in me in a way that no man had done before. So I had a situation where I met my dad at 15, wasn’t the greatest, wasn’t the greatest situation.

00:05:58:14 – 00:06:16:05
Ryan Echols
Him, he and I now are extremely close. It’s an amazing man now, but at that point in my life I didn’t have that. So I was a little wild for the years leading up to before I went to military. When I got there, I realized I wasn’t going to be able to go in there and just bully my way through.

00:06:16:05 – 00:06:37:04
Ryan Echols
Everything is wasn’t about the staff. They were amazing. They gave me a chance to realize humble myself, basically. That’s the way I mean, that’s the best way to put it. I got humbled they not only humbled me, but then built me up and said, hey, you could do something. You can go to school, you can create a life yourself.

00:06:37:04 – 00:06:47:13
Ryan Echols
Things that I had my mom always encouraged me to do everything. But it’s one thing for your mom to say it, but another man that you respect and say it is completely different. So go.

00:06:48:00 – 00:07:10:04
Brad Singletary
Back. I just want to talk about this this facility. So this is a secure juvenile correctional facility. This isn’t like, you know, Ju Juvie. This isn’t like some day camp. This is a prison basically for kids up to age 21. This is up in northern Utah. This is, you know, razor wire. There’s electronic door locking mechanisms. There’s a control panel.

00:07:10:04 – 00:07:10:14
Brad Singletary
And this is.

00:07:10:14 – 00:07:12:06
Ryan Echols
This is youth prison.

00:07:12:06 – 00:07:33:01
Brad Singletary
Pretty much. It’s a it’s a prison and there weren’t any armed. The only difference probably is that there are no armed or at that time there were no one was armed there. And so also when you said that you were a pretty big kid, you guys, he’s not talking about a chubby kid in this guy’s swole you know, he shows up with some with some muscle and and you and you’d already been in some fights.

00:07:33:01 – 00:07:53:05
Brad Singletary
You felt really confident. And some of that maybe sounds like is coming from a lack of that like fatherly role. And you show up and there’s these men who are the staff there and they connected. They somehow they reached you or you had a desire to like hear what they had to say. Talk a little bit about that, some of that stuff.

00:07:53:06 – 00:08:14:11
Ryan Echols
So for sure, I think I think every every young man who doesn’t have that connection with their father and or any kind of male role model, you’re always looking for it. It doesn’t there’s no doubt that I deal with it every day at work with these young men that are looking and begging for like some kind of connection to some man that will show them how to be a man.

00:08:15:02 – 00:08:33:07
Ryan Echols
And I was not an exception to that. I was like I said, I thought I was the toughest kid that there was at the time, that I was far from it. But the staff absolutely took me. And trust me, you know how it was. Play sports out there. You find out real quick how you play football a little bit.

00:08:33:07 – 00:08:52:14
Ryan Echols
You find out how tough you really are and but then they pick you up. I had guys Ben was one. They took you know, you need to go play ball. You go play football, you need to get out here and do more than this. This isn’t what you’re meant to do to be in lockup or be in prison or be dead by the time be 21.

00:08:54:09 – 00:09:17:04
Ryan Echols
I had no expectations for anything after I had gone through a year before that. I mean, I know if you want to get into that back and get the what led to me going to Milkshake was probably what changed everything. If we wanted to get into that, we can, we can do it right. So I met my dad at 15 and it was just one of those situations where my mom sent me to go live with my dad at 15.

00:09:17:04 – 00:09:38:09
Ryan Echols
I’d never met him. I’d say, He’s amazing, dude. Now we’re super close. We talk every day. At the time he was alcoholic, very, very violent. I got to meet him probably not the greatest number of my life, but I was already a violent kid. Anyways, you know, I started boxing at ten. I was. I’ve always been into physical.

00:09:39:10 – 00:09:40:14
Ryan Echols
I always like to fight that way.

00:09:43:01 – 00:10:02:06
Ryan Echols
I came back, my mom and I had a boyfriend when I was like four or five. That was like a dad to me. And it’s always been on my life even that entire time of school. Every year we go do that very close to me. I got back that that summer after meeting my dad first time, and three weeks after I got back, he killed himself.

00:10:04:08 – 00:10:27:12
Ryan Echols
And so it was a situation where I meet my dad disappointment. The guy that that was my thought daughter as my father commit suicide and I had no it wasn’t really my mom do talk about this. You still love this guy. Yeah. I mean, like she it was rough for her to deal with it. But for me I just shut down.

00:10:28:03 – 00:10:50:09
Ryan Echols
And if anything I became a lot more aggressive and a lot more violent just because I didn’t want to deal with emotions. I didn’t want to open up and tell him to hate this and that’s what led to is a year before I got put in lockup and I was probably fighting every weekend for a long time before I finally got in trouble and got sent there.

00:10:51:08 – 00:11:14:11
Ryan Echols
I’m going back full circle that I meet the staff there, and it’s kind of the same thing. I’ve got men that I respect and men that I know physically I have to. It was just kind of a snapshot of how tough you think you are. And yeah, it was there’s a bunch of great guys there, you know, that you worked with.

00:11:14:12 – 00:11:38:09
Ryan Echols
You worked with them too. And it wasn’t it wasn’t a superficial friendship. It was I guess it was legit. Like, I expect you to be the man I know you can be. And if you do that, I’ll be here for you. And it worked out to the point to where I left that place and was working there six years later because those men said, if you do what you need to do, will vouch for you and you’ll come back.

00:11:38:13 – 00:11:47:09
Ryan Echols
You’ll be the first person to ever be in here. Come and work here. I didn’t believe that at all, because I’ll be honest, like a lot of people told me flat out, you’ll never work here.

00:11:49:10 – 00:11:53:02
Ryan Echols
Because nobody ever had. But I took that as a challenge.

00:11:53:02 – 00:12:11:11
Brad Singletary
So you were a resident. You were a an inmate, basically, at this place. A troubled kid. You’d been in enough trouble. There were probably multiple layers of you know, they have diversion programs and, you know, you got your hand slapped and then a little more and then a little more. And then he got 14 months in basically a prison.

00:12:11:11 – 00:12:12:08
Brad Singletary
And you’re still in high.

00:12:12:08 – 00:12:12:13
Ryan Echols
School, right?

00:12:12:13 – 00:12:36:02
Brad Singletary
Z and and and these and these guys are seeing something in you. They see something because there’s a bunch of knuckleheads in there. There’s a bunch of, you know, idiot kids running around who just don’t have any kind of structure strength to speak of, really. And they saw something in you and you saw something in them and you kind of said, Hey, I want to hear what you have to say.

00:12:36:02 – 00:12:42:07
Brad Singletary
And they shaped you and so you left there after 14 months, and then six years later.

00:12:43:00 – 00:12:43:04
Ryan Echols
You.

00:12:43:13 – 00:12:46:11
Brad Singletary
You got a job there as a, as a youth counselor, right?

00:12:46:12 – 00:13:07:04
Ryan Echols
Yeah. So I left I went to Dixie Dixie College for a little bit. Left Dixie went actually went live with my dad for a year or so. I was going, I wanted to move to Arizona because my dad was a tapes lineman, made good money doing that. And that was my plan was to go he was going to get me a job down there.

00:13:07:04 – 00:13:35:03
Ryan Echols
I was gonna stay in Arizona. I went down there and my great grandmother had talked about it pretty much raised me, started having heart problems so I moved out to Utah to take care of I took care of it for two years until she died and then had met my ex wife. We were dating. I was getting ready to move back to Arizona and she ended up two pregnant and I didn’t want to do it.

00:13:35:03 – 00:13:55:07
Ryan Echols
My dad did and leave. So I stayed and I was doing cement work at the time and I just happened to submit work. Yeah, good. Hard. I’m making this money. But, you know, not so much. I went I happened to stop by to go visit the guys, go visit the counselors that I keep in touch with everybody.

00:13:57:08 – 00:14:20:09
Ryan Echols
Stopped by oh, you ever did can. Oh, yeah. Hey, there’s opening in control, and I want you to come apply for it. And I was like, there’s no way. There’s no way they’re going to hire me, you know, just like you didn’t. I’d never thought it would happen. So he’s like, I don’t care. We think you’re going to come apply for it.

00:14:20:11 – 00:14:42:05
Ryan Echols
So I did apply for control. Got that. Got hard to control. I think I was two months later, I got offered a spot in college to be to be counselor and that and I got to be honest, like, I never at that point in my life, I didn’t think that I was even still worthy of that. Like, you still dealing with all the issues of like, your past and trying to overcome all the things.

00:14:42:08 – 00:15:03:00
Ryan Echols
You know, I was doing good. I was doing very well for myself, you know, financially and everything. But emotionally and dealing with all the things in my past was still kind of hold me back for I didn’t think I was worthy of that yet, but it played out and, you know, I got it and it’s just 21 years later I’m still there.

00:15:03:08 – 00:15:21:10
Brad Singletary
So it’s that’s amazing, dude. I mean, I’ve just seen, I mean, the recidivism rates for the kids at this level. It’s just very that’s one of the best, one of the things that took me out of that career because it was, it’s kind of sad, you know, I mean, most of the kids that show up in those places, they end up in prison every few years.

00:15:21:10 – 00:15:46:01
Brad Singletary
I’ll look up some of the kids I worked with and I see their I see their picture in the in the state prisons and whatever. And I and I and I see, you know, how far things progressed in a worse direction for them, you know, and it’s just it’s just heartbreaking. But you’re someone who someone someone reached you, man, and you you had to reach inside yourself and say, I’m made for something better.

00:15:46:01 – 00:16:03:05
Brad Singletary
Than this, and I know what I need to do something. I just believe there’s something special about a guy who can do that at such a young age. I mean, I didn’t know this until a few years ago that our adult brain isn’t even fully formed until you’re like 25 or 26 years old.

00:16:03:13 – 00:16:04:02
Ryan Echols
I mean.

00:16:04:03 – 00:16:12:14
Brad Singletary
And that’s that was one of the coolest things I ever learned. And I was like, Well, no wonder they wouldn’t let me rent a car when I was, you know, a freshman in college or whatever. But so.

00:16:12:14 – 00:16:14:02
Ryan Echols
You’re way.

00:16:14:02 – 00:16:25:14
Brad Singletary
Ahead of your time in terms of turning things around or you started to in your late teenage years, were you at Mill Creek after you were 18 that were you already an adult and still locked up?

00:16:25:14 – 00:16:26:10
Ryan Echols
Yeah. OK, yeah.

00:16:26:13 – 00:16:31:14
Brad Singletary
See, so they kept they would keep kids until their age. 21. So. So how old were you when you left?

00:16:32:00 – 00:16:53:01
Ryan Echols
I was I was at probably 18 and a half, I think. But just beyond that now they just changed that here now that we’re keeping kids. So 25 which I don’t know that those are kids but yeah we did they just, they just changed that. Yeah. I’ve met something. They’re not a great idea for me in that facility, but I mean it is what it is.

00:16:54:06 – 00:17:07:02
Brad Singletary
Wow. That’s interesting. So you’re so you’re an adult and you’re still in lockup, but pretty much so when you get out there’s some probation or some kind of youth parole stuff where you have to go. And what did you do after you got out of there?

00:17:07:03 – 00:17:26:14
Ryan Echols
So I was on I was actually on parole, so I was like 23 because I had so much restitution so when I got done with that, I was 21. I had to go to adult because I still had restitution. They would lay me off until my restitution was paid, which oh. So then once my restitution was paid off, I could actually get my record expunged.

00:17:28:00 – 00:17:31:05
Brad Singletary
And you’re talking about adult parole, not you didn’t get.

00:17:31:05 – 00:17:37:06
Ryan Echols
No, no, no, no, no, no. Never got locked up again. Never. I’ve never had another charge secured. OK, OK.

00:17:38:10 – 00:17:40:02
Brad Singletary
Well, you just finished out your parole.

00:17:40:02 – 00:17:47:14
Ryan Echols
Yeah, yeah. Because I still have I think I still have a few thousand dollars left in restitution to pay. I mean, I was on my tank a few thousand from.

00:17:48:04 – 00:17:49:04
Brad Singletary
What was a total.

00:17:49:04 – 00:17:54:10
Ryan Echols
33,000, you know, in medical bills. Yeah.

00:17:56:09 – 00:17:58:00
Brad Singletary
Wow. You put a hurt.

00:17:58:01 – 00:18:10:12
Ryan Echols
No, I mean, it’s that is a bad situation, you know, maybe I’m proud of I don’t want to glorify any of it, you know, but quite it’s happened and people think it could happen to me. That’s easy.

00:18:10:12 – 00:18:20:10
Brad Singletary
You did what you had. Absolutely. But you finished that. You paid out 33,000 parole for several years afterward. And where did you where did you pick things up from there?

00:18:20:10 – 00:18:40:12
Ryan Echols
So like I said I went to Dixie College for a little bit. Wasn’t a good fit for me. I’ll be the first to admit to to go from being in lockup to you know, Dixie, when I was a JSI, there was a party school that was a terrible idea for me to go from lockup for a year plus to go to a party school.

00:18:40:14 – 00:19:15:04
Ryan Echols
So I lasted maybe like six, seven months. And I was like, if I don’t if I don’t leave, I’m not I’m not going to do well. So I went to my dad’s in Arizona decided I was just going to work. You know, I was going to work for the AP for eight years, the power company B alignment. And like I said, then things out with my grandma and I came up here, I started doing some work at group homes and I worked at several group homes up here while I was doing other work, got the time in with my schooling up to where they hired me at Mill Creek.

00:19:15:04 – 00:19:17:14
Ryan Echols
So that was it worked out.

00:19:19:13 – 00:19:37:02
Brad Singletary
And that was only a couple months here in the control room. That’s where I started. That’s where I’m talking about you open the doors, you’re looking at cameras and you’re kind of observing the flow of traffic, the control you’re in control of the flow of of all the movement inside. And then only after a couple of months you went and your title is Youth Counselor.

00:19:37:02 – 00:19:40:05
Brad Singletary
One, two, and that must have been a crazy.

00:19:40:05 – 00:19:56:10
Ryan Echols
Yeah. At the time. And the craziest thing about that is that when I got hired as a counselor, I worked in the same party that I was in so I was in the same unit I was excited to see when I was in there. And then I went back and worked in the exact same cottage. And it was it was me.

00:19:56:12 – 00:19:58:12
Brad Singletary
And some of those staff were still food.

00:19:59:01 – 00:20:21:00
Ryan Echols
And I took that to be honest. Like not all of them were super happy that I was working there at the time. There was a lot of negative, a lot of negative talk about me being there, which I understand as a staff. Now, at the time, there was a lot of there were some very good people that were very supportive, but there’s a lot of people that think I should be able to work there because of what I did and that I was in there.

00:20:22:04 – 00:20:25:06
Ryan Echols
But I think by now probably shown that I’m worthy of being there.

00:20:25:06 – 00:20:41:13
Brad Singletary
So well, I I got to admit, man, and I don’t think we ever had any much, you know, exchange or communication or anything but or about that anyway. But I remember feeling a little confused about how would they, you know, how did they let that happen or what’s, you know, is that is that is as good or not.

00:20:42:02 – 00:20:56:08
Brad Singletary
I wasn’t really judging it. I was just it was curious. I was like, this has never happened before. And and, you know, I don’t know. You have you’re this musky, muscled muscle dude, but who used to be there as a resident. I was is this a good, good idea or not?

00:20:56:08 – 00:21:14:04
Ryan Echols
No, I understand. That completely. And I knew that going in. And I think I joke with my wife all the time because I when I left there and I said I wanted to come back and work there, people were like, well, never happen. I guarantee you’ll never work here. And I’ll never forget, like, all right, watch. I’m going to show you that.

00:21:14:04 – 00:21:36:12
Ryan Echols
I could do that. I could do this. I come over. So why couldn’t you you know, I couldn’t be a neurosurgeon or something. Would wouldn’t make me a lot more money. But it it it played out good. You know, I feel like I, I feel like with my life before that and the way that I was, I wasn’t contributing to society the way that anybody said the things I did prior to being locked up.

00:21:37:11 – 00:21:57:04
Ryan Echols
This has been my way for 21 years to give back to the community I live in and do things that I should’ve been doing the whole time. And now that I’m a father, I’m a husband, all these things, and and for the boys I work with, they deserve that effort and the energy I put into them to make up for everything I did.

00:21:58:04 – 00:22:18:00
Ryan Echols
It’s a big deal to me because I feel like I did. I wasn’t the greatest person that, you know, maybe 15, 1415 to, to 18 till I was in there. A lot of things I feel like I need to make up for it. And it’s our being hard on ourselves for sure. But to me, I’m like, this is my way of giving back.

00:22:18:00 – 00:22:39:08
Ryan Echols
I said when I started, if I could help one kid the way I was helped, then I’ve done what I wanted to do. And I actually had a I had a kid that I had probably 15, 16 years ago that named a son after me two years ago. And, and to be honest, this was a little like my wife.

00:22:39:08 – 00:23:01:11
Ryan Echols
We were upstairs and he’d message me out Facebook and like, send me a picture of his baby. I had him for four years at that place. He came in at 13 and left at almost 18. No family, super good kid, just bad situation, good kid. Is doing amazing. Sent the message me say, hey, my baby is born and he sends me the picture.

00:23:01:11 – 00:23:22:03
Ryan Echols
I didn’t notice like the name tag on it and I’m like, I’d like to see the name. And I’m like, I’ll go back and look and my wife’s like, Are you getting emotional? I’m like, Yeah, like literally after you know, at that point, like 17 years of doing this like that is a, it’s a huge deal to impact somebody’s life that much like it was, it was amazing to me.

00:23:22:04 – 00:23:24:04
Brad Singletary
Wow. What an what, what, what an honor.

00:23:24:04 – 00:23:26:08
Ryan Echols
Yeah, well, go ahead.

00:23:28:02 – 00:23:54:04
Brad Singletary
Dwell. I just the, you know, everything that you’re describing from, from kind of what was missing for you in the beginning. That’s why this whole thing exists, man. We have kind of have a smaller, you know, following. We’ve got, you know, I don’t know, two 5300 downloads per episode. We got a little Facebook group and and but the idea is that men are suffering because of what other men are like in their lives.

00:23:54:04 – 00:24:11:09
Brad Singletary
And so if you’re if you didn’t have the best role models and things and you didn’t have the kind of presence that you needed, somebody to, you know, rough you up a little bit and love you at the same time, you ended up finding that. Thank God you ended up finding that in lockup. You know, you’re in it.

00:24:11:09 – 00:24:33:08
Brad Singletary
You’re in a youth prison. And you had some guys who probably roughed up a little bit and loved on you some, too, and kind of gave you some encouragement and gave you some you know, hold up the mirror and show you to yourself and they tell you what you can be. And then and then you you went out there and probably just stubborn enough to to to say you want to prove it and and you did that.

00:24:33:10 – 00:24:52:11
Brad Singletary
And that’s come full circle to where now you’ve got kids who’ve been out of that system for 15 years or whatever length of time and they’re naming their kids after you. That is dude, that’s, that’s success that began out of failure. And now you’re a dad, you’re married and have to talk about your kids and your family situation.

00:24:54:05 – 00:25:05:05
Ryan Echols
So I have total I have six, I have six kids. I have four. When I met my wife, she had two boys. So I’ve got two stepsons. We have two together. So we have eight in total which we.

00:25:06:14 – 00:25:11:13
Brad Singletary
I thought I had a bunch of kids. You do have a y’all got a like a tour over there. How do you.

00:25:12:14 – 00:25:31:04
Ryan Echols
Settle with one? We’ll need it if everybody comes home. That’s the thing. Luckily, enough, as my older kids, I got 22 and a 20 year old daughter out on their own. My wife’s 19 year old’s in Hawaii going to school. So we’re lucky enough right now. We probably have three or four, maybe five at the most on a weekly basis.

00:25:31:04 – 00:25:40:03
Brad Singletary
So if you got a 22, you do to me I, I’m thinking you’re 20 like that’s what I knew. You were.

00:25:40:03 – 00:25:41:05
Ryan Echols
Right. You were pretty.

00:25:41:05 – 00:25:52:00
Brad Singletary
Young like that. So it’s weird to think you got a 22 year old. I have an 18. My my, my oldest is 18. So we’re getting eight kids all together, yours, mine and got York.

00:25:52:02 – 00:26:22:01
Ryan Echols
Right there and I love it I actually like it. I mean it, it’s not the easiest thing to blend families for sure. It’s a lot of work but I think the connection I with my wife, I mean we’ve made it work for sure. It’s like it’s not always easy. It’s definitely not easy. And then like I said, we have our two together, which is it’s funny because we kind of had our own like when I met her, we had a date and she only had boys and she wanted a daughter.

00:26:22:01 – 00:26:47:05
Ryan Echols
Right? Absolutely. I’ll make sure you can have a daughter. And her first baby was a little girl, so she got her daughter there. She’s basically like the miniature version of my wife. They exactly like her. And then she got pregnant about a year later, and we had our son who was literally like exactly like me. It’s funny because I was like a miniature version of each other to finish it out.

00:26:47:05 – 00:26:50:03
Ryan Echols
And so that’s it. I mean, we’re done for sure.

00:26:50:05 – 00:26:51:03
Brad Singletary
Well, it’s got to be me.

00:26:51:05 – 00:26:52:06
Ryan Echols
Yeah. Oh, yeah.

00:26:53:05 – 00:26:57:05
Brad Singletary
Well, I 20 if you got 20 something year old kids, you want to be a great father.

00:26:58:00 – 00:27:07:04
Ryan Echols
A grandfather. Actually, yeah. Oh, oh, grandfather. My, my, my oldest daughter. Maybe Grandpa a year ago in December, so. Yeah, yeah. Wow.

00:27:07:07 – 00:27:15:08
Brad Singletary
Well, congratulations, man. So your kids, your your older kids, good relationships with them. Is that all? Yeah. You know, I mean, I’m sure you went through a lot together.

00:27:15:08 – 00:27:33:00
Ryan Echols
Yeah, I think, I mean, in that situation, I think, like, we’ve always been close. I was always dad first, no matter what. Like, whether I was, whether I was fighting, whether I was, it didn’t matter. I mean, like I said, we didn’t really talk a whole lot, but I’ve never been I don’t go out much. I don’t party a lot.

00:27:33:00 – 00:27:58:11
Ryan Echols
I, I’ve had my, my time for sure. I won’t deny that. But when I had kids, it was like I’ve always felt like I needed to be what I didn’t have. And so that’s always been a priority to me. Being a dad is a big deal. I’ve messed a lot of shit up in my life, but being a dad is something that I’ve tried to be my best at now with my wife now I’ve tried to be a good husband just trying to mature and grow and be better at things.

00:27:59:12 – 00:28:12:03
Ryan Echols
My older kids, yes, we went they they went through a lot more than they should have because the relationship that me and their mom had, but I was always there. I mean, the only thing I could I’m not perfect by the means, but I showed up every day. I was there every day.

00:28:14:11 – 00:28:33:08
Ryan Echols
Yeah. I mean, we’re all close. We’ve always been very close. We talk all the time. My daughter, my oldest daughter is in California with her baby and baby’s dad. All my kids are here all around town. And I still see all of them like my other kids with my ex. I get them every week like it works out.

00:28:34:00 – 00:28:56:10
Ryan Echols
So I’ve got it. Wow. My, my. I got an 11 year old. And it’s funny because when when me and Lindsay, my wife, when we met, she had a three year old that had a two year old and they were eight months apart. Two boys. Yeah. Now now they’re 11 and almost to like my stepson will be 12 next week and my son’s 11 and they’re close as hell but they’re super close.

00:28:56:14 – 00:29:10:08
Ryan Echols
There’s been a lot of battles between those two. Those two are by far the closest because they’re closest in age and it’s worked, Allie said it’s been rough. It’s hard to blend everything lately, but I can’t I can’t complain. It’s been, it’s been good.

00:29:12:09 – 00:29:34:11
Brad Singletary
So this topic about discipline, I mean, you went from a life maybe of no discipline. There didn’t seem like there was a lot of discipline even in your home or not. The right kind of, you know, structure and discipline. And you turn things around. You’re a family man now. You do it. You’re still doing a lot with, you know, fitness and you’ve talked about I want you to talk about, you know, Emma and fighting.

00:29:34:11 – 00:29:56:13
Brad Singletary
You’ve done some, you know, started out maybe just street fighting. Got you. Right. But you but you wanted to harness that into something that was about you know, that’s what I’ve noticed about you over the years is just your commitment to like working out. You’ll have a picture of your, you know, one of your little ones running around like leg there, you know, and there’s my workout partner and you so you continue that.

00:29:57:03 – 00:30:19:04
Brad Singletary
You seem to be a guy who for the most part isn’t one to make a lot of excuses I know we all have our off days and we get off track for a little bit, but you’ve done it enough that you’ve stayed fairly consistent from what I can tell, from what I know about you, and to look to look at you, I can tell that you’ve got a you got a way to grind and I want to come back to discipline.

00:30:19:04 – 00:30:40:10
Brad Singletary
And so you’ve talked about career stuff. What motivates you there, your family, how? Well, talk about fighting, though, because you you took some of that maybe anger or the desire to be physical and fight and, you know, this violent nature and to turn it into something more like an art form. Mm.

00:30:40:11 – 00:30:42:02
Ryan Echols
A Yeah. That’s.

00:30:42:07 – 00:30:43:13
Brad Singletary
You know, that’s that’s an art.

00:30:44:08 – 00:31:04:09
Ryan Echols
It for me. It’s weird how it played out. I’m not sure this is like it’s happened to thousands of people, right? I was a product of a single mom, right? I had I was probably I was only child till I was in my I was just me, too. I was doing I was probably a little not little. I was definitely a little chubby kid for a long time.

00:31:05:00 – 00:31:27:13
Ryan Echols
So I was probably ten to about 13. Yeah. My mom always had me in sports and I wasn’t very great. I wasn’t very great at sports for a very long time. And she married my she met my, my sister’s dad. And they got married. He was, you know, he was he was a good athlete, wasn’t the nicest guy ever, but pushed me.

00:31:27:13 – 00:31:52:08
Ryan Echols
And it kind of motivated me to like they would constantly there’s like comments about not being athletic. And so I probably at 13 really pushed myself to get in shape and not be clumsy and overweight. So working out all the time. At 13 my mom started taking me to the gym at 13 and then I started boxer and I think my grandpa boxing was the boxing.

00:31:52:08 – 00:32:15:14
Ryan Echols
The army you had you had to. Yeah, you had to be able to handle yourself. My, my family they were a little little rough so it was a lot of for me it was proving people wrong even then when I say if you like my stepdad I wanted to fight. You think you’re a good athlete. Watch. I’m going to show you that I can be a good athlete.

00:32:15:14 – 00:32:42:13
Ryan Echols
I went from being 12. I was a senator on my football team and at 13 I was running I was a running back and inside linebacker just based off of the effort I put in and it just always seemed to be for some reason, I would always just choose violence. In that time, I couldn’t handle people saying things or people criticizing me.

00:32:42:13 – 00:33:08:11
Ryan Echols
I’d always be like, I tell you exactly what happened. I was probably 13 years old and there’s kids pick on me every day, walk home from school every day. Always something pushed you spit on each other. And the last week before my end of my sixth grade year, I turned around, punch this kid in the face, dropped him, Illustrator broke his nose, first time I’d ever hit anybody and dropped him.

00:33:08:11 – 00:33:28:09
Ryan Echols
And it was like I became like this little miniature celebrity in my little group, in my own neighborhood is like, wait a minute. If I actually fight back and I’m decent at it, people like me, right? I’d be this nerd that nobody likes anymore. And that’s what started everything. And then it became like and to be honest, at that point, like, I didn’t have a lot of friends.

00:33:28:12 – 00:33:44:12
Ryan Echols
I was chubby kid that like to read books and play like my animals or stuff. I didn’t. I was a single kid, but there are people like, Oh, you beat up so and so. And then a few months later I beat up somebody else and start building this fake persona almost at that time because nobody’s nobody’s guiding me.

00:33:45:08 – 00:34:02:02
Ryan Echols
Nobody’s saying like, Look, this is a this is the way to do things. I definitely defend yourself. Don’t let people, you know, put their hands on you. I didn’t get that. My mom was definitely like, Don’t. If somebody picks on you, don’t come home unless you go you go handle it. You see my wife, it’s definitely my mom.

00:34:02:06 – 00:34:34:08
Ryan Echols
I don’t if you get beat up, you got to go back and fight again so you could kill you do win or don’t come back. But she was at work. You know, she worked a lot. She had to because it was just us. And so for those years, it was just like I got a lot of get rush and adrenaline and what I thought was people liking me for being violent but not fast forward to get to the point from that to when I got locked up I didn’t hear from anybody like all these people that said, all right, you will be there for you.

00:34:35:04 – 00:34:54:00
Ryan Echols
You realize real quick, when you get locked up that nobody really cares. There’s this very few people in life that are going to be there for you when you need them. And it’s always your tribe. It’s your family. A very small circle. I’ve always kept a very small circle for that reason because I learned it at 17 years old, I got locked up.

00:34:54:11 – 00:35:16:05
Ryan Echols
All those people that say they care, they it’s all lip service. That’s all it is, you know? You know, everybody knows that now in our age, like, you start realizing like. And so from that, when I got out of lockup, probably about 90, 95 was when the first UFC started. It’s like, wait a minute, you can fight somebody in jail for do you?

00:35:16:05 – 00:35:43:12
Ryan Echols
Can I get locked up for it? And you know, in, in Arizona at the time, there’s some underground stuff that we make. You get a hundred bucks to go fight, that kind of thing. I did that for a while and it was, I started doing jujitsu and all that and it brought some kind of like normalcy to my passion for that without it being like overly aggressive it’s hard to explain like it was and it was.

00:35:43:12 – 00:36:04:12
Ryan Echols
There’s a lot of it. It was like just rebelling back for everything and everybody just being too much. And now I could do it. And it’s an art form, right? I can do jujitsu, I can do more type, I can do boxing and I can help train kids, and I can do all these things in this physical expression of greatness that doesn’t have to be a crime and it doesn’t have to be violent.

00:36:05:00 – 00:36:27:01
Ryan Echols
And you start realizing, I think that’s where honestly where my fight to self was when I started looking at like an art form, because if I could be that violent person and then I could if if it comes to a street fighter or to protect my family, it’s still there. But the art form of what that is kind of changed a lot of things for me because I had kids when I had kids, it made me a little softer.

00:36:27:01 – 00:36:38:13
Ryan Echols
I’m not going to deny that. But so yeah, it was image issue, all that stuff. It was a big part of helping me, you know, stay on the right track for sure.

00:36:41:08 – 00:37:02:07
Brad Singletary
So talk about discipline, I mean, just in general. And we’ll we’ll get into some specific questions here. But the change for you at some point, you went from just, you know, hellion, street fighter, violent guy who was just, you know, locked up. And at some point what you had to learn or discover, maybe the hard way, maybe it was a choice.

00:37:02:07 – 00:37:26:08
Brad Singletary
Maybe you would lay there at night and think, I got to be a better dude. I mean, what how did you get to be so disciplined? Because you can’t have a successful blended family. You can’t have a pretty, you know, solid body as a 40, 42. You can’t be 46 and have you know, be built like this. You can’t have a successful blended family and a 21 year career and a very stressful job.

00:37:27:04 – 00:37:48:07
Brad Singletary
And you can’t keep all that together if you don’t have a sense of discipline. I can tell from your, from your, from your posts and things like you’ve got a beautiful home, like you got some things figured out. Ryan and I just wonder how like how did discipline create that for you because you were headed, I don’t know the numbers, but it used to be high, high numbers.

00:37:48:07 – 00:37:56:12
Brad Singletary
I mean it’s 70, 80% of those kids in those facilities end up in prison. You’re headed there. You turn it around with discipline. How, how did you do that?

00:37:57:11 – 00:38:17:09
Ryan Echols
Honestly, it was if I’m being honest, before I went to Mill Creek, I thought for sure. I mean, you’re talking about the time like the mid nineties, early nineties, it was crazy, crazy time. I thought for sure I would be in prison. I thought I would probably be dead by the time I was 21. He was like, this is the way I was.

00:38:17:09 – 00:38:34:07
Ryan Echols
I’m not nothing to be proud of at all or anything like that. But it took me about a month of being and being locked up. I was like, Yeah, this is not the life I want. This isn’t what I want. I’m watching everybody around me, the things we’re doing and the life that they’re living, and I don’t want that.

00:38:35:02 – 00:38:53:10
Ryan Echols
I don’t know how to live it at that point. And I talk about this with my kids a lot. I, I started doing meditation. I had my mom bring a lot of books on meditation. I started reading every religious book I could find was the Old Testament, New Testament, the Koran, every Buddhist writing ever the Bhagavad Gita. I read everything I could.

00:38:54:00 – 00:39:20:10
Ryan Echols
All I did is read them. I sleep them in my room the night I locked lockdown. I read, I worked out, I read and worked on my meditation. I started developing a pattern of learning and I talked to my kids a lot about this at work is they think meditation is a chore, right? When in reality, it’s a situation where you’re trying to find that moment between thoughts that lead to the situation that gets you in trouble.

00:39:21:04 – 00:39:39:01
Ryan Echols
And learning to take that break and snapping yourself out of that repetitive habit you have of doing the same shit. They get you in trouble all the time and just taking a break. Stop. Wait a minute. We catch myself and that’s what it was. And it’s a lot of practice. I’m still I’m still practicing that to this day.

00:39:40:01 – 00:39:59:12
Ryan Echols
But that was the original plan was like, All right, I’ve got to get this impulsive, violent streak out of my head. I’ve got to learn to deal with this. And then I got to realize that I’m worthy and capable of a normal life. And it was it’s been a process for sure, but it’s it’s been a great process and a hard process.

00:40:00:05 – 00:40:40:02
Ryan Echols
And when discipline, it’s like we as we get older, especially our my body is beat up. I mean, I’ve had more injuries and surgeries and I want to talk about but I still have to do something every day. I still need to get up and move I still need to try to eat. Well, we have our I mean, me and my wife, you know, that’s one thing that I’m one of the reasons my wife’s Instagram blew up because we did after we had our last baby, we were both overweight and we were at Universal Studios for our honeymoon after our baby is born and I look like Shrek standing next to one of the pictures.

00:40:40:02 – 00:41:00:03
Ryan Echols
And I was 273 at the time. Not in any kind of shape, horrible shape. And she was you know, I won’t say what her weight was that she she’s bigger, too. She just had a baby like you she didn’t like how she got back. And I was like, all right, we’re going to we’re going to diet. But I’m doing the diet.

00:41:00:05 – 00:41:18:01
Ryan Echols
You’re just going to do what I say. And she said, I trust you. And she’s lost. I think she lost like £80. I lost £86. And it’s, it’s been a lifestyle change more so than just are we going to diet? We stopped eating chips and salsa every night while we drank beer on the couch and talk to each other.

00:41:18:01 – 00:41:46:03
Ryan Echols
And it’s just been a complete lifestyle change. And that discipline with it, that was the beginning of this reinvention of myself and almost 40, 42, like where I was like I had my, I don’t know, like my, my 11 year old now was like five at the time. And he’s looking through my phone on Facebook and he’s looking at my pictures and he sees a picture of one of my fight posters and he’s like, Who’s that?

00:41:46:13 – 00:42:05:03
Ryan Echols
And I was like, That’s me. It’s like, No, it’s like that. You’re too fat. That’s not you. It’s like that five year old. Honestly, that five year old. Honestly, that’s not like he wasn’t being mean. Is this reality like yeah. You don’t look anything like that. You’re 185,000 picture you to 70 right now and that. And then I had issues.

00:42:05:04 – 00:42:23:02
Ryan Echols
My blood pressure is in hospital like three times in the year for my blood pressure. It was like one of the last time I was there that my doctor’s like, if you want to see these kids make it to high school, you’ve got to make some changes. You know, stop drinking so much. Stop eating the way you’re eating, start exercising more.

00:42:23:09 – 00:42:43:01
Ryan Echols
You’re like, it’s obvious that you know what to do. So it was it was a wakeup call for sure because you know, there’s a lot of there’s a lot of drama that went on with my divorce leading into my marriage that caused a lot of issues with me and my wife that we’ve battled through and that whole weight loss process made us so much stronger because we did it together.

00:42:43:09 – 00:43:03:11
Ryan Echols
Yeah, we overcame that. Became with the strong I mean, I, I don’t I couldn’t be with anybody better in my life. Like, she’s the best person for me ever. And she’s, you know, I hope that, you know, I think she feels the same way. We’ve done a great job together as a team, but that team has been like the discipline of just devoting myself to her was something I’d never done before.

00:43:04:11 – 00:43:23:10
Ryan Echols
You know, I wasn’t the greatest husband or anything before. I met my wife and I was miserable. And so with this situation, I’m like, I’m going all in. I’m going to devote everything to my family, to my wife. And it has been an amazing eight years we’ve been together. And, you know, the first few were a little rough, but these last four have been amazing.

00:43:23:10 – 00:43:25:14
Ryan Echols
We’ve done some good things together. We still are.

00:43:28:02 – 00:43:45:05
Brad Singletary
I think I was caught. You guys, I must have caught you on Instagram right around that time. And I don’t know if I follow her or if I just see it because you’re tagged in it or whatever. How I how I know, but I see both of your stuff and it looks like, man, it looks like you have a a decent relationship.

00:43:45:05 – 00:44:06:04
Brad Singletary
And I know people talk, you know, right smack about social media is not real and whatever. But I can tell you, man, I’m a I’m a person who can I can I can look in the mirror. This is my job. As a as a therapist. I look at people and I can read what the vibe is. And it seems very good that you have a solid relationship, you know, and you’re doing this stuff together.

00:44:07:07 – 00:44:07:10
Ryan Echols
Yeah.

00:44:08:03 – 00:44:27:01
Brad Singletary
And it’s amazing that you’re talking about that. We can drift. You know, we even when you you’ve known these things in the past, you were all swole and fit before and then we drift a little bit. And then if you make your mind up. So the mindset is it is an important part of this. You got to make your mind up to discipline.

00:44:27:06 – 00:44:47:05
Brad Singletary
And you’ve done that at some pretty pivotal times in your life as a younger person in the in the in lock up. When you decided to come back, you wanted to to prove everybody wrong, that you couldn’t work there. You did that. And then later on, you know, you got your got blood pressure problems and the doctor says you need to change and you did.

00:44:48:06 – 00:45:03:03
Brad Singletary
It’s amazing how how did you how did you talk to yourself? Like, what did you say? So the doctor says you’re not going to make it for these kids to graduate. You need to make change. How did you begin to talk to yourself about the daily discipline you need?

00:45:03:06 – 00:45:22:05
Ryan Echols
Honestly, like it would’ve been so I had my car fixed in 2009, and that was the beginning of like me spiraling down before I met my wife. Like, she taught me bottom spiral for whatever reason. She just still decided to make it work with me. But I was still recovering from that. Like, I couldn’t fight anymore. I couldn’t train the way I wanted to.

00:45:23:14 – 00:45:46:07
Ryan Echols
I kind of given up like I really wasn’t working out. And then we had our we had our babies and I’m like, I’ve given I’d given so much to my older kids that being in the gym with me every day and then seeing me is is not the baddest man on the planet by any means. But my kids, my older kids knew like my dad will take care of me if something happens.

00:45:46:11 – 00:46:05:13
Ryan Echols
My dad is a pretty bad dude, at least if somebody comes out his protectors and now I’m this overweight guy that’s not doing anything. And my younger kids, they have no idea. They can see pictures, but they’ve never seen me that way. And it was a that was a big thing for me is my kids deserve to see me at least the best I could be.

00:46:05:13 – 00:46:23:02
Ryan Echols
Now, I’ll probably never be what I was, but they deserve to see me the best I can be now. Right. And so it was a rough I mean, my body was beat up, you know, the things I’ve done, but it’s like I owe it to my kids and I owe it to myself to be to go out at least on top in their eyes.

00:46:23:02 – 00:46:40:07
Ryan Echols
Right? Like, let them see me be the best I can be at 46. You know, it’s I didn’t want my kids to be embarrassed of me dropping them off at school. Like, Dad dropped me off down the corner because I want my friends to see you thinking that. Like, when I was at my heaviest like, were my kids embarrassed to have me drop them off?

00:46:40:08 – 00:47:05:00
Ryan Echols
Like, it was a big thing. So I’m like, you know what? You know what to do. You’ve done it for your whole life. Like, you’ve done this before. So it’s time to, like, get off your ass and do it. And that was it. Like it. It was a daily thing, like, in my head because I work, like, right now, I work all six of two, so 6 a.m. to 2 p.m. so I’m at 430, give up, do something right, get up and move.

00:47:05:04 – 00:47:20:12
Ryan Echols
And then when I get off work, you get home. I go straight to the gym in the garage, or I go to the gym in town. But usually if the weather’s nice, I work out in the garage. I got an ice cube in my garage when I get home and the kids get there, it’s you’ve seen that. You’ve seen the YouTube, the videos on Instagram, it’s I’m out there working out.

00:47:20:12 – 00:47:35:13
Ryan Echols
My kids are playing. They’re working out with me. I want everybody out doing something. Let’s get out and get physical, get in the sunlight, be active. And if I don’t, I catch myself being lazy like my youngest on my fibro like that. Are we going to go work out? It’s like, all right. There you go. There you go.

00:47:35:13 – 00:47:38:06
Ryan Echols
He’s calling you out. It’s time to get up and get moving. So, yeah.

00:47:40:05 – 00:48:03:05
Brad Singletary
Dude, that’s awesome for them to see you make the changes to be kind of involved with it, to be around that stuff, too. You know, they’re never going to walk into a gym as an adult and write, you know, £45 plates, clink for the first time. I mean, they would have seen it and see what it does for you and see how it affects your mood and your family, your relationship to your wife.

00:48:03:05 – 00:48:16:00
Brad Singletary
I mean, they would have been, you know, an observer of all this growth and all this like discipline here. So why is it so important to you? Why is discipline such an important thing for you?

00:48:18:03 – 00:48:45:12
Ryan Echols
I honestly because if I didn’t create my own discipline, like we talked about the beginning, nobody taught me how to do any of this stuff. I basically I had to kind of fake it till I became who I wanted to be. And that started with me being disciplined in certain things. Exercising and learning to control my temper, learning to control the way I talk to people, learning to fit into environments.

00:48:45:12 – 00:49:02:06
Ryan Echols
I didn’t understand how to be around that’s one thing I forgot to say earlier is like when I went to Dixie after getting out of lockup, I went from being in a situation with murderers and gangsters right. To a situation where all these kids are normal. And I’ve got to pretend like I know how to hang out with them.

00:49:03:04 – 00:49:22:00
Ryan Echols
And honestly, at that point, I really didn’t know how to hang out. I didn’t come from like the greatest situation. You know, we lived in a poor area where I was living. I was always probably only like in two blocks. I come to just to go to college, and it’s like being around people that were normal, which was intriguing.

00:49:22:02 – 00:49:39:14
Ryan Echols
I wanted to do that. I was just like watching and seeing how to fit in. And it’s kind of been a process for me of creating my life that way. Like, I look for people like like to see, like, I want my life to be that way. All right, so how do I do that? I’ve got to make it happen myself, right?

00:49:40:00 – 00:49:55:05
Ryan Echols
I can’t do the things I did before because if I do that, I’m going to get what I got for it. And that discipline, that discipline of like saying I am not going to go back to that person that I was. I’m not going to live that life anymore. And whatever I’ve got to do, how uncomfortable it gets, I’m going to do that.

00:49:58:12 – 00:50:21:07
Brad Singletary
I think for some people and I’ve been for sure been this person people talk about, especially with like diet and fitness routines and stuff like that. They they they feel like they’ve failed if they don’t stick to it. 100%. I had a client here recently, he was talking about, you know, man, I do this for two weeks and then I’m off for two weeks and then I do it for two weeks and I’m like, all right, I see why you’re upset.

00:50:21:07 – 00:50:41:08
Brad Singletary
But dude, you you spent half of the year last year. You know, focused and being intentional about what you eat and what you do with your body. That’s not it’s not that bad. That’s better than most people. Even if you’re on and off of it. Don’t get tripped up about the fact that you you know, you’ve been slipping back up.

00:50:41:08 – 00:51:05:09
Brad Singletary
Tomorrow’s a new day and just get your self back in gear with with whatever thing, whatever thing it might be. What about what about routines? Like, a lot of it seems like discipline has a lot to do with structure. Andrew Stevens, we had this two star general on last, last in the last episode, and he was talking about, you know, discipline so many times has to do with structure.

00:51:05:09 – 00:51:19:13
Brad Singletary
There’s a a term for this. It’s it’s leg day today. It’s, you know, back and biceps or whatever. Like when it comes to routines for you, what’s been helpful from throughout your life? I mean, what kinds of routines have helped you stay focused?

00:51:19:13 – 00:51:41:06
Ryan Echols
All right. So before that, I want to get to the book when with people taking the two weeks on Twitter. Right. That that’s something I want to touch on because when my wife started this process with me, I told her flat out, we’re going 12 weeks no cheating, no glasses, wine, nothing, period. I’m going to hold you 100% accountable after that.

00:51:41:06 – 00:51:56:02
Ryan Echols
12 weeks if you want to have a cheat meal. And so we’re at a point now where we will have a cheat meal Saturday or Sunday. We go on a date. I date my wife every week. We go on a date every week. I make sure that we do that. And she wants to a glass of wine, that glass wine.

00:51:56:06 – 00:52:17:12
Ryan Echols
And if she wants some French fries or pizza, we have it right. You said that doing more than you would do regular is always going to be better than nothing, right? So yeah, getting back to so yeah, when it comes to my routine, it’s I want the hardest thing first, right? So it’s always International Chess Day on Monday.

00:52:18:01 – 00:52:44:03
Ryan Echols
It’s always everybody that’s just a Monday. I do legs on Monday and I do that. I do legs again on Friday. I decided that I needed to do something when I came back and I started working out again. I mean when I was 2324, I was attention 515. I was a oh my, I was a little bit of a freak of nature, you know, 23, 24 years old, squat and seven and seven it beat my body up.

00:52:44:03 – 00:53:06:04
Ryan Echols
So obviously now if I, if I hit 359 because I related with it right without my shoulders, don’t hold it up very much anymore. But I have to do things now harder when I don’t want to do it. So if I take Sunday off I need to legs on Monday and then I’ve gone into a situation where I do like a push pull legs.

00:53:06:10 – 00:53:28:09
Ryan Echols
So I do chest, shoulders, triceps one day back biceps straps and then legs or I’ll do the opposite. So I try to do that biceps straps, sort of triceps weights. Stay off, go. But if I’m really pushing it, I won’t take a day off and I’ll just go out. I might do lighter work, but I’m always making sure I do something.

00:53:28:09 – 00:53:49:04
Ryan Echols
I want to get up and do something every day they happen all the time. No, there’s no doubt. Like I have days where I’m just beat up, my body’s hammered, I need the salt bath and massager and the heating pad, you know, and I’ve kind of learned to. I said I’m 46 at this point. It’s like I can’t beat myself up over missing a day.

00:53:49:11 – 00:54:01:08
Ryan Echols
I definitely like to get out, walk make sure I get my 10,000 steps in every day. Minimum but if my body is really beat up, I probably should take a little bit of a break. So I kind of eased up on that a little bit.

00:54:03:08 – 00:54:20:11
Ryan Echols
I I like to set up like at least like a 12 we decide to do for 12 weeks and I need to hit those goals. I need to say I’m going to hit these workouts every week for these 12 weeks. And then if I need a couple of weeks to scale it back and take a break, so be it, right?

00:54:21:05 – 00:54:32:11
Ryan Echols
That’s how I have to do things. Because if I give myself too much leeway, I’m like, Oh, I can do it tomorrow and I can’t do it. It just hasn’t worked out for me in the past. I have to just hold myself accountable and force it to happen.

00:54:35:00 – 00:54:41:01
Brad Singletary
What’s magic? About 12 weeks? I mean, so three months, three months, I guess. I mean, that’s a lot of 90 days and it’s.

00:54:41:01 – 00:54:57:06
Ryan Echols
Just me mentally. I don’t even I don’t have a reason to honestly just two hour weeks. Yeah, it was worse for me. I honestly, I feel like three or four weeks. I got to like as far as pushing weight, I’ve got to go back a little bit. But the work effort is still there. Like my shoulders won’t hold up.

00:54:57:06 – 00:55:12:02
Ryan Echols
So I’m trying to push heavy for 12 weeks, but the work output has to be there for 12 weeks for me. Then I got to a week, I could say, All right, you might have earned a couple of weeks of scale on back a little bit. And I mean, I’m just trying to stay somewhat average now, but that just always works for me.

00:55:12:02 – 00:55:17:06
Ryan Echols
So that’s what I, that’s what I do so.

00:55:17:13 – 00:55:38:08
Brad Singletary
All right. You’re talking about getting up at 430 in the morning. You work at six. So you’re already you’re already, you’re already, you know, running, you’ve already got something going, some physical activity going before you even go to work early in the morning. That’s when you do that. You talked about having some occasion you’ll have a like a Saturday or Sunday cheat.

00:55:38:09 – 00:56:04:04
Brad Singletary
Yeah. Or whatever. What are there what are the what are the kind of forms of discipline for you? Because this is more than just about I think some of your strengths are fitness and diet and stuff like that. But what other things like let’s talk about like, you know, your environment, your space, your your stuff, maintaining your mood, you know, your your money, your actions, talk about other types of things.

00:56:04:08 – 00:56:28:06
Ryan Echols
You know, it’s I would say like my my environment is for me, it’s controlled chaos because we got all these kids running around. But that is where I find my peace. I couldn’t be any happier or any calmer mentally than seeing my children thrive and be happy and have the things that I didn’t have. So they can come out and say, hey, dad, can we go outside and do something?

00:56:28:06 – 00:56:46:11
Ryan Echols
I never was able to do that. So I find for me that’s like the biggest thing. It was more than money. It’s more than working out for nothing. My boys and my girls can come and say, Dad, can you do this with me? And that’s that’s a huge thing. I mean, for me, that’s one of the big things I’ve done in my life is be a dad.

00:56:48:01 – 00:57:01:04
Ryan Echols
Then I always make sure that I try to explain to them, like, exercise is one thing, but we need to need to read. So I make sure that everybody’s got we read books here. You have to read where I’m going to sit on electronics all day long. There’s limited time on electronics. I do the same thing for myself.

00:57:03:02 – 00:57:06:12
Ryan Echols
Shut everything down. I like to say everything down before bed. It’s an hour or so before bed.

00:57:09:10 – 00:57:16:10
Ryan Echols
Try to read something to get my brain to relax a little bit because, you know, getting older, it’s harder to sleep. But yeah, I.

00:57:18:12 – 00:57:39:03
Brad Singletary
There’s there’s got to be some pushback on that. So, you know, one, so there’s discipline, there’s individual discipline. So that’s you taking care of yourself as you do in your routine. But then as a leader or as a, you know, counselor in your work or as a father, you got to be disciplined because I’m sure you get pushback from the kids.

00:57:39:03 – 00:57:53:03
Brad Singletary
They you want to take their devices, you want them to read. They’re going to give you a hard time or I’m sure maybe in the beginning they did anyway. And you got to be disciplined enough to not buy into the you know, not cave when they when they fuss a little.

00:57:53:03 – 00:58:13:14
Ryan Echols
Bit for sure. I mean, and they still they still do. There’s no question. It’s my my daughter, my seven year old. If you’re watching, I’m she’s kind of she’s definitely the princess of the house. And every day still this is always been a rule. But no candles or anything. A dinner. There’s no electronics, a dinner. You put everything that she still acts every day.

00:58:14:04 – 00:58:25:01
Ryan Echols
She’ll still bring it in every day. What about today? Can I can I watch it today? No, you know, you can’t watch it. And it’s literally the same thing with it. Yes. She was hoping for a kick.

00:58:25:02 – 00:58:25:14
Brad Singletary
In the just a.

00:58:25:14 – 00:58:46:03
Ryan Echols
Possible absolutely. And I don’t blame her. I mean, good for her for trying, but that’s just that’s one of my things. At night before bed, you know, they have their time that they can use it. When it’s time to shut it off, it’s off and is it hard? Absolutely. And like this way on my end, it’s there’s times I would just as soon let him use it so I can relax and go to bed and not fight him.

00:58:46:05 – 00:58:58:07
Ryan Echols
But I’m not benefiting them by doing that. So, yeah, it’s harder to be that to be that person, say, no, we’re shutting everything off right now. We’re not having it on at dinner. Well, yeah, it’s a lot more work for sure.

00:59:00:09 – 00:59:19:13
Brad Singletary
When you were talking about environment, it’s controlled chaos because kids, I don’t believe that. I mean, not any worse than anyone else’s home, but I mean, but how do you how do you look at how do you see the, like, upkeep of your place and stuff like that? I mean, I just everything I’ve seen is always things look pretty for sure.

00:59:20:02 – 00:59:36:04
Ryan Echols
Absolutely. That’s it. That’s a big a big thing for me is everybody has I mean, everybody has stories every day. They have victories they have to do even my five year old chores to do nothing. I mean, that’s scrubbing the floor, things like that. But that we has a part in this House. I tell you, this is our tribe.

00:59:36:06 – 00:59:53:02
Ryan Echols
We don’t take care of this. Nobody will. Right. So everybody has to do their part. And my wife is definitely somebody that doesn’t want to come home. I get off at 2:00 every day. My wife is out at five. So she’s home around 536 so I make dinner. I take care of all that stuff before she gets home.

00:59:53:11 – 01:00:11:11
Ryan Echols
I make sure the kids know your mom doesn’t want them home to me because if she comes home to a mess, then I’m gonna hear about it. And then you’ve got to hear about it. So it’s just get everything done the best you can. I mean, with all the kids we’ve got, it’s not completely perfect. But yes, our house is we try to keep it clean and straighten it as possible, but it’s a lot of work.

01:00:12:03 – 01:00:33:10
Brad Singletary
I like how you’re saying, Whoa, dude, I like how you’re saying that. So you’re you’re up super early. You’re working out before you even go to work at 6 a.m. home by two. You got 3 hours or so with the kids before she gets home, and you’re doing dinner and picking things up and handling kids. Like, there are so many men out there who just they don’t or won’t do that.

01:00:33:10 – 01:00:51:14
Brad Singletary
I know there’s plenty. Right. And hats off to everybody who can do that. But that’s pretty mature of you. That’s being a grown ass man. When you’re up working out of 430, go to work 8 hours, come home, do the dinner, take care of your kids. And looking after mom, too, you know, I mean, that’s that’s pretty awesome that you do that.

01:00:51:14 – 01:00:59:11
Brad Singletary
I’ve picked that up a lot from your your social media, just that you you’re really a team and you definitely pull in your career.

01:00:59:11 – 01:01:18:06
Ryan Echols
Yeah, for sure. I think that’s I mean, I sometimes I work out the kids when they get home. So if the kids want to work at work at 320 when they get home from school, we’re outside. I want if it’s nice, we’re outside at 430, it’s time to feed them, right? Yeah. I just feel like I’m home, right?

01:01:18:07 – 01:01:34:14
Ryan Echols
I’ve already worked my wife still at work. The least I can do is take care of the things I can take care of at home so that when she gets home, we can have dinner together, we can hang out, we can spend time together because then that’s our time together. If I waste that time, just doing nothing, then that ruins our connection.

01:01:35:07 – 01:01:49:00
Ryan Echols
Right? And that’s her husband. The least I can do is help her out while she’s still at work. When I get up and I get up to take a shower in the morning, I’m getting ready for work. I come out and she’s got my coffee ready. She’s got my lunch in my in a bag ready for me. She takes care of me the same way.

01:01:50:03 – 01:02:03:11
Ryan Echols
So at least I can do is do my part like we’re a team. If we don’t work as a team, then this doesn’t really work. I like to cook anyways, so it’s not a big deal to me, you know, and that’s I feel like it’s my responsibility and she’s at work. I’m home. I can do that.

01:02:06:13 – 01:02:22:08
Brad Singletary
You know, we began this talking about your time in lockup and then, you know, your 21 year career. You’ve been working in that system ever since and I wonder if that was a part of your change. You know what you did. I pick up that you were an only child raised by single moms.

01:02:22:09 – 01:02:29:06
Ryan Echols
Yeah, I have a sister here that I was ten when she was born so. Yeah, pretty much.

01:02:30:00 – 01:02:45:11
Brad Singletary
I mean you pretty much. Yeah. So you go from kind of being able to do what you want to do and run around and whatever to this very highly structured this is the wake up time. This is the day you have to say this is when you have your chores. Here’s when we have group. There’s, there’s school time.

01:02:45:11 – 01:03:19:04
Brad Singletary
There’s here’s when we go outside there’s a lot of structure. And I remember working there. That was one of the things that seem these kids who come there, they could thrive because of structure. If they went back home into chaos, you know, they would go back into the same old patterns. But do you think that made a difference in how you see your use of time and your entire way of discipline now that at some point it went from you could do whatever you want, you ran around and did whatever to a highly structured daily some daily kind of ritual?

01:03:19:04 – 01:03:44:10
Ryan Echols
Yeah, for sure. My mom was somebody that like you, you did your chores, you made sure the house was clean. But she worked a lot. So I still have the freedom to do so. But when I went to military, actually back then, I worked in the kitchen every day because the kids could work in the kitchen because I had so much restitution that I worked in the kitchen at 6:00 every morning till 330.

01:03:45:02 – 01:04:02:01
Ryan Echols
And I did that for the entire time. I was there, and I definitely created habits and discipline for me to get up every morning and be ready for work. So it’s always worked out for me that way. When I got out of Mill Creek I just automatically started to get up early and get things done, and I had never done that before that for sure.

01:04:02:09 – 01:04:07:14
Ryan Echols
I’d get up at 20 minutes where I had to be to school and that was it. Yeah.

01:04:09:01 – 01:04:09:12
Brad Singletary
And I’m guessing.

01:04:09:13 – 01:04:10:03
Ryan Echols
Oh, go ahead.

01:04:10:13 – 01:04:29:00
Brad Singletary
I’m guessing when you’re working, I’m guessing when you’re working in the kitchen that was an option. Yeah. I mean they probably offered it, but maybe you didn’t have to do that, but you chose to, to take advantage of. See, I don’t know. I guess what I’m picking up from you, Ryan, man, is that you’re, you’re seeing opportunities all the time.

01:04:29:00 – 01:05:00:11
Brad Singletary
You’re saying, right, here’s an opportunity, here’s an opportunity, my kids, here’s an opportunity. Here’s, here’s what I could work out. Here’s the best time for me to work out for the morning. Here’s an opportunity for me to get things set up for my wife. Here’s an opportunity, and I’m going to take advantage of this opportunity. And that’s what’s making things work for you because you’re noticing, you know, you’re 16, 17, whatever, in, in, in lockup and you’re thinking, I’ve got all of this restitution, and I got a chance to work and let me work a bunch of that off as much as possible.

01:05:00:11 – 01:05:14:13
Brad Singletary
I just love it, man. You’re, you’re seeing that someone is hand in you some time someone is handing you an opportunity. Here’s an experience you can have. Here’s and you take advantage of opportunities absolutely.

01:05:14:13 – 01:05:31:01
Ryan Echols
That was a I mean, I used to say you remember my first day in Mill Creek, my first full day at Mill Creek. I went to school and he came in. He’s like, hey, get your ass up and you’re going to the kitchen. You’re going to work. You got this reservation. We’re going to get it. He’s like, Are you willing to work?

01:05:31:01 – 01:05:50:14
Ryan Echols
I said, Absolutely, I’m going to work. He’s good because you can eat whatever you want in there. And then then when you’re dining, go work out. So I have an opportunity to work off my restitution. We’d have omelets every morning for breakfast. All the kids had cereal. So we’re in the kitchen. There’s two things I’m working my hours off, and I also get to eat more food and I’m working out every day.

01:05:50:14 – 01:06:11:09
Ryan Echols
So it was a win win for me for sure. But I didn’t want to waste time in there. I think you work there, you understand? Like the kids go there and it’s just they they told me, Oh, they don’t want to make any change. And it’s sad. It’s sad to see people just waste time because what happens then?

01:06:11:09 – 01:06:18:01
Ryan Echols
You see them when they’re 30 and they’re just getting out of prison. They’re doing the same thing. When they could have changed everything back then. Yeah.

01:06:21:14 – 01:06:39:12
Brad Singletary
So you talk about you’ve talked a little bit about time. I guess, you know, you’re taking advantage of the time that you do have. You talk about your date nights and was that always the case? Because that’s an opportunity you got, man. I know it’s hard. You got I have some smaller, younger kids like that and it’s hard to break away from them sometimes.

01:06:39:12 – 01:06:40:09
Brad Singletary
But you’ve made it.

01:06:40:14 – 01:06:41:07
Ryan Echols
A.

01:06:41:12 – 01:06:44:13
Brad Singletary
One of you. Maybe she did. She maybe she pushes you.

01:06:45:02 – 01:06:45:10
Ryan Echols
A little bit.

01:06:46:01 – 01:06:52:13
Brad Singletary
What have you made? What have you made the decision that we need to be spending some time together away from this debt?

01:06:53:02 – 01:07:17:03
Ryan Echols
If I’m being honest, there was a we’ve always had a great connection. When we met and started dating my previous marriage, I had been separated from my ex-wife for years. She would not sign a divorce for me. So that went on for three years into my relationship with my wife. That caused a lot of stress like a lot of drama.

01:07:17:03 – 01:07:42:02
Ryan Echols
We had our babies. We were together. Mean we lived together was and there was nothing from that previous marriage. Four years. But she wouldn’t sign a divorce. Caused a lot of issues. We had two babies. I think we were I don’t think I know we were basically done. We were going to be done. And when we decided to lose weight and commit to each other, recommit to each other, it was like we need to to have that time every week.

01:07:42:02 – 01:08:03:04
Ryan Echols
It’s not about the kids. It’s not about controlling this household. It’s about me and you bonding and spending time for each other and with each other. And so that it was both of us honestly, like, I didn’t want to lose her. I’m pretty sure she did want to lose me. But it was something like every Friday, Friday, Saturday night, you’ve got older kids.

01:08:03:07 – 01:08:20:02
Ryan Echols
You guys can watch the kids for an hour or so while we go to dinner. As it’s an hour or two, we’ll hook up some pizza or whatever, you know, whatever you guys want to eat, but you guys can babysit and we go out. And it’s been something that we’ve done for for a while now and it’s paid off for sure.

01:08:20:03 – 01:08:21:10
Ryan Echols
It’s definitely made our relationship better.

01:08:24:05 – 01:08:52:07
Brad Singletary
I’m curious a little bit of a sidebar question, but I’m curious about who which of you is kind of the leader, because I’m I’m picking up some things that, you know, maybe you’re really and I’m sure I don’t know if you both take turns, but when you talked about the decision to lose weight, the decision to make changes in your like lifestyle together, who is one or the other of you more kind of influential like the leader of the.

01:08:53:04 – 01:09:15:10
Ryan Echols
Of the two? You know, it depends on the situation, like when it comes to like fitness diet stuff. I am a hundred when it comes to sports. The kids I am when it comes to like my yeah, works me 100% in her career and everything else. I won’t deny that for a second. She’s amazing in what she does. I love my job.

01:09:16:00 – 01:09:35:06
Ryan Echols
She’s is absolutely cheap. She’s a hard worker. In that sense. And I think that’s why we complement each other so well is I can call her on something and she she has a better idea. I still struggle being called on to fix this. She calls me on, Hey, you could do more this way. You could do it, OK?

01:09:35:11 – 01:09:37:12
Ryan Echols
She’s always right. But it is what it is.

01:09:40:09 – 01:09:52:03
Ryan Echols
So yeah, it depends on the on the situation because she definitely is she wouldn’t say that I’m the leader of much, but when it comes to diet and stuff like that, she falls. What I say for sure.

01:09:55:00 – 01:10:12:06
Brad Singletary
But she respects you enough somewhere. Somewhere she respects you enough to say. I remember earlier on here today, you said, you know, she said, I don’t trust you. Like, tell me what to do. I have to trust you. I’ll follow you. And in even if that’s the only thing, even if she thinks you’re an idiot for everything else, there is enough basic respect there.

01:10:12:06 – 01:10:18:05
Brad Singletary
She has enough respect for you to believe you and to trust you and to kind of like follow.

01:10:18:07 – 01:10:19:00
Ryan Echols
For sure.

01:10:19:13 – 01:10:20:07
Brad Singletary
Some of.

01:10:20:07 – 01:10:37:10
Ryan Echols
Those I mean, honestly, we were we were best friends before we did so. I mean, there was no there was no secrets. All my all my wrongs on my all my mistakes. She knew everything and vice versa. So I mean, there is a trust and a respect that we have for each other because of that friendship we have.

01:10:37:12 – 01:10:59:08
Ryan Echols
And we still have that. Absolutely. I mean, do anything for her. She’d do anything for me. Like I joked around a lot about, you know, for sure we do have that relationship, too. She trusts me. She trusts me, and it’s vice versa because that’s because we were friends before we ever dated. Like, nobody could say, hey, you know, Ryan was this person or this person 20 years ago.

01:10:59:11 – 01:11:08:13
Ryan Echols
Yeah, I know. Because we’ve been friends. And he told me everything so there was no secrets going into our marriage. They had this build a relationship where we trust each other very much.

01:11:11:09 – 01:11:33:08
Brad Singletary
Talking about environment and the conversation last week that I had with the admiral, he was talking about environment also includes, you know, friendships and things like that. I know with a large family you may not have a ton of time to socialize and stuff, but what kind of discipline do you have or talk about discipline in the context of like your social connections?

01:11:33:14 – 01:11:40:14
Brad Singletary
Who do you hanging out with, who you spend time with, who do you, you know, listen to? Who do you trust? Who do you have around and how does that you know.

01:11:41:03 – 01:12:00:11
Ryan Echols
Honestly, like, you know, when you work the mail pieces, like we got a bunch of good, good guys out there. And that’s kind of my my cottage and the guys I work with, that’s my my circle outside of home. And we get together like you remember Rocky Bills mhm.

01:12:01:02 – 01:12:03:05
Brad Singletary
Oh wait. I guess the brother.

01:12:03:07 – 01:12:21:10
Ryan Echols
So yeah. So we get together in his house. We all, you know, we just out there last Saturday hanging out, talking, you know, dealing with stuff from work but you know, playing pool and hanging out. That’s, yeah. That’s, that’s my, my, my crew outside of, outside at home. And lucky enough we work together to.

01:12:24:02 – 01:12:35:05
Brad Singletary
But there’s enough in common, there’s enough, you know, you trust these guys, you, you know, they have your best interests at heart. You know, they would tell you when you’re being an idiot, you could talk honestly with each other. That makes a difference.

01:12:35:05 – 01:12:52:06
Ryan Echols
It does. And especially in that job, you have to trust somebody like I mean, at the end of the day, like something could happen any day at work or somebody gets to get stabbed in the neck. They could. I mean, we’re dealing with kids that are in there for motive. Like we’re we’re responsible for each other’s safety every single day.

01:12:53:02 – 01:13:06:08
Ryan Echols
So it’s definitely that relationship that you can trust somebody if you work with somebody. So, yeah, and we definitely will call each other on if you’re doing something wrong, you’re going to hear about it for sure. You know how it was when you were there. You see how it is.

01:13:09:06 – 01:13:22:14
Brad Singletary
Real quick, I wanted to talk about mood because you’re you were, you know, saying that anger was a big part of this whole thing that got you in trouble in the first place. Anger and violence and so forth. How do you have discipline over your.

01:13:22:14 – 01:13:23:12
Ryan Echols
Mood that.

01:13:24:14 – 01:13:25:11
Brad Singletary
What’s helped you?

01:13:26:06 – 01:14:03:02
Ryan Echols
Like I said, honestly, the biggest thing was when I started meditating and like learning to not let my emotions control me. And another big thing was not letting other people’s responses or words affect me or control me. So I realized I could control my own emotions. I could could self regulate with nobody. So by just catching that little break between thoughts before I react and just build on that and I built on that for 30 years now, it’s in that process.

01:14:03:02 – 01:14:21:14
Ryan Echols
And I talk to my kids at work every day about this, like catch catch force because we all have that moment before we snap. And if you can’t learn to find that moment before you do, you’re never going to change anything. And it is paid off. I mean, I wouldn’t be doing my job if I wasn’t. So I had issues with anger.

01:14:21:14 – 01:14:38:05
Ryan Echols
I mean, obviously we all still we’re all human and I still have my bad days and moments where I’m probably miserable to be around and far from perfect in that way. But it’s still a process. I’m still working. I have missed it. I’m still working on it every single day.

01:14:40:06 – 01:14:57:07
Brad Singletary
When it comes to meditation, you know, I think a lot of typical guys, you know, they think, oh, that’s what girls do at yoga class or whatever, you know? I mean, they don’t it’s it takes it. I remember I probably the first and and and the the longest period of time I ever did that was when we worked together.

01:14:57:07 – 01:15:15:11
Brad Singletary
There was a program where kids could go and work out. And at the end of that, there was a meditation stabilizing. And that’s where I was introduced to some of that. But it was a, it was a it was an interesting thing to talk about. A meditation, how you do it. Is there a particular type that you do or what’s honestly.

01:15:15:11 – 01:15:37:09
Ryan Echols
Like for me, like, I even would do that with my youngest kids. It’s like it’s a matter of counting your breath, right? Like this. Don’t let thoughts come to count. Count your breath, count to five, take a breath in and out five, five. County start bars. Breathe in, breathe out right now. When the thought comes in, realize that that’s coming into your head right now.

01:15:37:09 – 01:15:55:03
Ryan Echols
Forget about it. Start counting again and you start to learn how to catch a break between each one of those thoughts as they come in and out. I want it to be as basic as possible, especially for my kids. And for my kids at work. That’s the only way it’s going to work. I can’t go in and do like some kind of meditation therapy and expect them to sit for 8 hours a day.

01:15:55:03 – 01:16:15:09
Ryan Echols
This is not going to happen right right. Right. That basic needs, the basic needs of learning to catch yourself between thoughts. And that’s how you do it. For me, that’s what work. If I need to take a minute, then count my breath to get my head straight. That’s what works. That’s it’s always work for me is the most basic, the most basic form possible.

01:16:16:05 – 01:16:34:05
Ryan Echols
I’ve done other things. I’ve done plenty of other types of meditation. I do you do guided meditation with everyone, but when it comes to effectiveness for people who are just starting out, count your breath count your breath and they want to stop, comes in, start over and acknowledge that that document doesn’t mean that that was bad. It just means that it came in.

01:16:34:05 – 01:16:39:08
Ryan Echols
They’ll start over and do it again and do it longer. Before the next that comes in. That was it. That’s all I do.

01:16:39:08 – 01:17:03:05
Brad Singletary
It seems like it seems like that would just slow you down. And if you can know that you’re thinking if I right. I mean, that’s a high that’s a high level of self awareness. Mostly we’re just running around nonstop like animals and we don’t even we’re going to take a minute to think, oh, I’m thinking or thought. But when you’re trying to do something like that, it gives you some control or some like awareness.

01:17:03:05 – 01:17:09:02
Brad Singletary
You’re monitoring the the process that’s happening in your mind, in your body. That’s pretty awesome.

01:17:11:07 – 01:17:27:05
Brad Singletary
So, dude, this has been like this has been amazing to talk to you. It’s been I’ve been down in Vegas for 17 years and, you know, haven’t I think I’ve gone back once. I went back and hung out with really and those guys. One time I caught up with Rob Reeves.

01:17:27:05 – 01:17:31:13
Ryan Echols
I just saw him where I thought, Rob last week the yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:17:32:02 – 01:17:54:14
Brad Singletary
And then I’ve seen Vinnie a couple of times. And so I it’s those were some of the best days of my life that kind of work that kind of spurred me into this into what I’m doing now, working with man and trying to, you know, basically do the same things and, and just bring some stories that can be inspirational to guys just trying to figure it out.

01:17:54:14 – 01:18:23:04
Brad Singletary
So many men don’t have the right role models. They don’t have the right you know, the situation with their dad. One of my friends the other day, what did he call it? A dad deficiency sometimes means he wasn’t there or or he was preoccupied. He was running around. So many guys have have had that happen. And you had some men come along who were strong were tough on you and also showed you enough love at the same time.

01:18:23:04 – 01:18:59:06
Brad Singletary
And you have. Right, man, you’ve got this cool thing. I’ve been thinking a lot about the concept of polarity. And basically it’s that you can be both, you know, tender and tough. I’ve seen you write very sweet messages about your wife, for example, and yet you’ve got this, you know, violent inmate excuse me, jujitsu history you can you’ve got this ultra toughness, this this disciplined, laser focused kind of way and also meditate and also like, you know, you’re reading books.

01:18:59:06 – 01:19:20:07
Brad Singletary
You’re not just some muscle head freak, you know, who’s who’s who’s. You’re not just the dumb jock. You really evolved with like all of these. You talking about reading the spiritual books and and learning to meditate and learning to be aware and learning to be OK with some sensitivity before the show here, I asked about is it OK to talk about anything?

01:19:20:07 – 01:19:44:10
Brad Singletary
And he said, I’m an open book. I’ve got note, you know, that’s a part of who I am, and that is maturity. That’s a person who’s not going to let even the worst things about your story bother you because you’re so far beyond it. You’re so far moved past that that you’re secure enough to be OK with the fact that you’ve had some you’ve gone through some tough times, created, you know that you created yourself.

01:19:44:10 – 01:19:57:07
Brad Singletary
I just I have a tremendous amount of respect for you. Also, another cool thing that we didn’t mention much was the you were on a show here recently. You had a pretty talk about that for a all right.

01:19:57:07 – 01:20:23:14
Ryan Echols
So I was a huge fan of Yellowstone at season one. Right. And somehow my wife, somebody follows my wife on Instagram was somebody that was casting. They were looking for casting for season two. And my wife comes home one day. They say, hey, you’re going to go beyond the first episode of Yellowstone. You’re like two weeks. And I’m like, what are you talking about?

01:20:23:14 – 01:20:39:11
Ryan Echols
We got to take some modeling pictures. I’m like, I’ve never taken a modeling picture in my life. Like, I’m far from a model, so I can’t take all these stupid pictures. And I had to go buy some new wranglers and all that stuff for that if I have that.

01:20:40:04 – 01:20:41:11
Brad Singletary
Do you normally? Do you normally? Do you.

01:20:41:11 – 01:21:02:11
Ryan Echols
Normally? No, know, I have. I’m not good. I had I had horses, not that at one point, but it had been a while before that way and only the only victory in that. The funny thing about that is that’s when I had just lost a bunch of weight so I was a size 42 jeans before that. And when I had to get my regulars, they were size 32 and I had won 32 since I, since I was in high school.

01:21:02:11 – 01:21:24:03
Ryan Echols
So I was super hyped about that but yeah. So then I drive down to the Spanish Fork and I sat for God, I want to say was like 16, 17 hours. We filmed for like 2 hours and I probably was in season two, episode one, the bar scene for like 5 seconds. But it was awesome. It was, it was cool to be on the show for sure.

01:21:24:07 – 01:21:29:07
Ryan Echols
And I got to see, I got to be like, yeah, like power shared. And everybody was there. It was cool. It was really cool for sure.

01:21:32:04 – 01:21:35:09
Brad Singletary
So I guess when it aired, you showed that to your kids and you gathered around the.

01:21:35:09 – 01:21:48:07
Ryan Echols
TV that they had back in yeah. I think I’ve got a picture of it on my, on my Instagram, actually, there’s a screenshot of it. So that’s the yeah, it was cool.

01:21:48:07 – 01:22:13:14
Brad Singletary
That’s awesome, man. Dude, I appreciate your your time to spend with us here, man. You’ve, you know, you, you’ve done the you know, some impossible things to just to just no longer follow this path that you were on so many people. Again, that was one of the reasons I kind of got out of that. I didn’t have the heart to watch these kids one after the other just continue and all the work we did and all the stuff we poured into it.

01:22:13:14 – 01:22:29:01
Brad Singletary
And your story is one of hope and one of influence you’re talking about some badass men and I know who some of them are, who who looked you in the eye and gave you some some firmness and some, you know, friendly, fair, like.

01:22:30:04 – 01:22:31:11
Ryan Echols
You know, correction.

01:22:32:07 – 01:22:52:08
Brad Singletary
And I know they changed it to what, juvenile justice, but it used to be called youth it used to be called youth corrections when I started in. And you you made the corrections, you made the changes in your life. And I know things aren’t perfect. You’re just like everybody. I’m sure you get frustrated with your kids and, you know, have good days with your wife.

01:22:52:08 – 01:23:15:13
Brad Singletary
And there’s plenty of ordinary problems like everybody else. But in the big picture, dude, you’ve come a long way and you’re you’re out here influencing other young people to the point of, like, these guys are naming their kids after you and stuff and so, so much respect for you. Appreciate what you’ve, you know, the kind of example that you are out there.

01:23:16:00 – 01:23:36:03
Brad Singletary
I’m going to promote this. And is it OK if I take your Instagram and stuff like that and I don’t know about you, too, you know, you know, you’re kind of punisher and it’s it’s really cool to see how how much you love and respect her. I can just really tell she’s very important to you. And a lot of people.

01:23:36:03 – 01:23:37:11
Brad Singletary
You said you’ve been together eight years.

01:23:38:06 – 01:23:39:06
Ryan Echols
Eight back in November.

01:23:41:04 – 01:24:02:09
Brad Singletary
Oh, man. That’s that’s around, you know, seven, eight years. That’s when a lot of people are are the most checked out. And it seems like you’re you appeared to be crucial never and really moving in a good direction and good on her for finding a good dude and and for you being the kind of guy that you know she deserves so I really appreciate you.

01:24:02:09 – 01:24:14:13
Brad Singletary
I hope to in the future maybe have you back on here. And if you’re ever in Vegas, man, you you know I know you I know you want to spend time doing what you do down here, but I’d love to catch up, have a breakfast with you or maybe.

01:24:14:14 – 01:24:16:05
Ryan Echols
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

01:24:17:01 – 01:24:39:05
Brad Singletary
And catch up with you. Ryan, appreciate it so much, man. You guys, you guys, we’re talking about discipline because if you don’t have a discipline, if you don’t have a practice of discipline in your life and continue to make the decision to do the things that are going to make a difference in your life, you just you just run into pain, frustration, disappointment.

01:24:39:10 – 01:25:10:14
Brad Singletary
It costs you money. It costs you your health. There is no more masculine like property than to have some discipline. That’s how you take control of your life. And this is not about dominating other people. This is about dominating your own selfishness. Dominate and your laziness, dominating your, you know, your inability to make good choices and do the things that are going to create health and and vitality in your life.

01:25:10:14 – 01:25:15:13
Brad Singletary
So thank you again, Ryan, for being with us. You guys. No excuses. Alpha up.

01:25:24:14 – 01:25:30:01
Speaker 2
Gentlemen, you are the Alpha and this is the Alpha Quorum.

080: NICE GUY SYNDROME with Steve Edwards

080: NICE GUY SYNDROME with Steve Edwards

080: NICE GUY SYNDROME with Steve Edwards

If you’re like most dudes, no one taught you how to be a man. Instead, you’ve probably been taught pretty much the opposite. So many personal influences in our lives: our parents, our peers, and society has conditioned us to be obedient rather than strong. We’ve been taught to be a good boy, follow the rules, not be rude and these ideas have been forcibly injected in our heads since we were able to speak. The problem is it doesn’t work and is hardly ever in our best interests. These messages manipulate us into being manageable and compliant, the standards of systems that are about control. Sometimes giving is not right. Sometimes sacrificing is wrong. Sometimes being nice damages us. Today we’re going to discuss the book No more Mr. Nice guy by Robert Glover.

 
Questions answered on this episode:
1. What’s wrong with being a nice guy?
2. What does it mean to be integrated?
3. What’s the making of a Nice Guy?
4. How do you please the person who matters the most?
5. How do you prioritize your needs?
 
What ways we can do to be integrated?
  • Be honest about your feelings, your interactions.
  • Quit being afraid of new experiences or what’s around you.
  • Learn to surrender what you can’t change.
  • Do what you want to do.
  • Learn how to get help.
  • Recognize that people are human.
  • Stop trying to be perfect.
  • Stop seeking approval.
  • Take care of your own needs with integrity.
  • Stop building such huge walls and let people in.
  • Don’t try to cover up or take attention away from your weaknesses. Don’t be afraid of your shortcomings.
  • Be aware or cognizant of your childhood events and some of the conditions or influences that led you to where you’re at today.
  • Set boundaries.
  • Be transparent about what you’re feeling about things.
  • Spend more time with men.
  • Recognize that women, they reject nice guys.
  • Learn to be more passionate, more assertive, more responsible.
  • Recognize that you don’t have to do everything right, or you’re allowed to be flawed.
  • Don’t let the fear of failure or the fear of success.
  • Go after the life you want, quit settling.
  • Make your own rules.
 
FULL TRANSCRIPT

Brad Singletary (00:00:00):
If you’re like most dudes, no one taught you how to be a man. Instead, you’ve probably been taught pretty much the opposite. So many personal influences in our lives. Our parents, our peers and society has conditioned us to be obedient rather than strong. We’ve been taught to be a good boy, follow the rules, not be rude. And these ideas have been forcibly injected in our heads. Since we were able to speak the problem is it doesn’t work and is hardly ever in our best interests. These messages manipulate us into being manageable and compliant. The standards of systems that are about control sometimes giving is not right. Sometimes sacrificing is wrong. Sometimes being nice damages us. Today we’re going to discuss the book No more Mr. Nice guy by Robert Glover.

Intro (00:01:06):
If you’re a man that controls his own destiny, a man that is always in the pursuit of being better. You are in the right place. You are responsible. You are strong, you are a leader. You are a force for good. Gentlemen, you are the Alpha, and this is the Alpha Quorum.

Brad Singletary (00:01:30):
Welcome back to the Alpha Quorum Show. Brad Singletary here. I’m really excited about this episode. This is episode number 80. I can’t believe that we’ve come this far. It’s been over three years now and it’s just exciting. The feedback that we get from all of you, thank you for what you’ve shared with us in the social media and the messages and emails and so forth that we’ve gotten. Our guest today has been an entrepreneur from his first business owning and operating a car stereo shop 20 years ago until today, right here in Las Vegas. Since then he’s owned a car dealership, a bar, a strip club, and currently owns a Jeep boat and jet ski rental company. A whole bunch of ATM machines as well as a marketing agency that works with tour and rental operators around the country. Steve Edwards is the dad of two boys, one in the air force and one who just recently enlisted in the Navy. Welcome, Steve. Appreciate you being here, brother.

Steve Edwards (00:02:24):
Hey, thank you so much for having me the episode 80. That’s pretty impressive. Yeah.

Brad Singletary (00:02:28):
Yeah. Well, I should mention here too, that you’re a podcaster yourself and you’ve done played with this a little bit and he’s teaching me how to get my mics and stuff dialed in a little bit better tonight. Appreciate that, man.

Steve Edwards (00:02:41):
This is fun. I love this stuff. This is great.

Brad Singletary (00:02:42):
Well, this topic seems to be something that you really are. How are you? How are you so familiar with this information? This is like your hobby horse of…

Steve Edwards (00:02:55):
This is my catalog. This is my book.

Brad Singletary (00:02:59):
So we want to talk about the book No More Mr. Nice guy by Robert Glover as I’ve worked with men. And as I’ve figured some of my own out, I’ve realized that far too many of us are just too soft. I did a little survey recently on a private Facebook group, by the way, if you’re listening to us and you’re not a member of the Facebook group, check it out. It’s called the Alpha Quorum. It’s a private group on Facebook. No one can see that you’re there. What you post, unless they’re in the group.

Steve Edwards (00:03:28):
And you’ve got to be a man which helps.

Brad Singletary (00:03:31):
Yes, everyone there is male. We verify that. I guess we’re only looking at pictures and names, but we think we have a pretty good idea.

Steve Edwards (00:03:37):
I said, man, loosely, I guess you need to be a male. Probably a couple of not men, but there’s some definitely, everybody’s a male.

Brad Singletary (00:03:47):
You know, it’s funny. We have, I think 1% of our audience in there, it shows up is female. And I think it’s because you have, there’s a couple of guys who share their their Facebook accounts with their wives and maybe that’s where that comes from. But

Steve Edwards (00:03:59):
I mean, that could be its own podcast on its own. What does it mean when you start sharing your Facebook account with your significant other?

Brad Singletary (00:04:06):
That’s being a little bit too nice. Maybe. Definitely. So No More Mr. Nice guy. What, what led me to this entire thing that I’m doing as I speak to men as I’m working with men in my practice is just noticing that men are either too hard or too soft, too nice or too difficult. And I read this book probably three or four years ago. It was it was recommended to me by Derek Johnson. We kind of started this whole thing together, Derek and I, and he showed me this book and told me that he himself was a nice guy and recovering nice guy. So Robert Glover is a therapist and he recognizes some of the patterns that he talks about in the book, recognize that in himself. And he describes a little bit about how that has harmed his harmed his relationships. And he’s teaching this to other men so that we can get ahold of ourselves and get our balls back basically.

Brad Singletary (00:05:03):
So we want to review a little bit about this content. We’re going to talk about just nice guy syndrome, what it is, how we become this nice guy, learning to please the person who matters most making your own needs a priority, reclaiming your personal power, your masculinity, and more about getting the love and the sex and the life that you want. Those are basically the chapters of his book. Start us off on a high level here. Steve, what, what is this about and what do you recognize in general? We’ll hit some specific bullet points later, but sure. You know, plenty of guys who behave this way, they’ve surrendered their masculinity itself to the system, to their spouse, to their parents or whomever. They’ve given that up to what do you notice?

Steve Edwards (00:05:51):
I even think that this isn’t even something that I need to kick down the road. You know, this is something that I can take full ownership of as I was as nice of a guy as you could possibly meet the nicest guy. And you know, when you start seeing some of the traits that represent being a nice guy, you know, at surface level, they sound like really admirable traits. Like you’re a nice guy. You’re willing to, you know, do things for others. You want to fix problems. You are a giver. You you know, you are seek, you seek the approval of others. When you say these at surface level, these sound like great, wonderful things that you would want out of a guy. Yeah.

Brad Singletary (00:06:33):
This is the dream husband you’re talking about.

Steve Edwards (00:06:35):
Absolutely. But what ends up happening is you end up with a guy with no backbone. You end up with a guy that can’t deliver on his promises because he is incapable of it because he’s living a lie. He’s not happy. Most of this is all self-deprecating behavior because they’re not serving themselves first. They’re not taking care of their own wants and needs. And yeah, they end up in a really tough spot.

Brad Singletary (00:07:03):
Yeah. They, everything they’re doing is really calculated to try to gain approval or avoid disapproval. So we’re always trying to do the right thing so that, you know, nothing is ever hard for anyone. We want to protect everyone. Else’s feelings, repress our own. Of course. Yes. That’s so unhealthy.

Steve Edwards (00:07:23):
I’m healthy because you know, I was like to take this back as if any of you guys have ever did it. And every, every guide knows this, that women love a bad boy. Right. Right. and we see it in media. We see it in everyday life and you never really understood the why. Why do they go after the bad boy? Well, because there’s an edge because they, they appear to be a man. They have this backbone, this, this spark about them that feels alive. And when you start looking at a lot of nice guy behaviors, you know, the, this idea of not being able to stand up on your own feet, it’s almost like codependent in its own way. Totally. But they’re not, they’re not fulfilling their own wants, needs and desires because they’re so busy worrying about everybody. Else’s

Brad Singletary (00:08:14):
And the hope, why, why is that? What is the hope in trying to please everyone? What are they trying to gain from that?

Steve Edwards (00:08:20):
So the term, and I mean, we’re kind of like without jumping too far ahead, but the term is it is a covert contract. Most of everything done as a nice guy is done with the idea that you will receive something in return. The easiest way or the, you know, the dumbest way to explain this in a guide type of mentality is, you know, the time you did the dishes or you did the laundry in order to have sex,

Brad Singletary (00:08:47):
Hey babe, I changed the light bulbs. You think we could have some alone time now, a hundred percent, but this covert. So that means we’re not really, this is, that would be even better. That’s what the bad boy move is like, Hey, I changed the light bulbs. I did the dishes now let’s get naked.

Steve Edwards (00:09:03):
Yeah. But that doesn’t even express that it’s not even said what it, what it’s done is it’s almost like, I think every old person under the sun has always said it, you know, what does assuming mean? It makes an out of you and me. Right. And, and it’s that, it’s a game. It’s mental gymnastics. It’s I’m going to do all these things, right. I’m going to, I’m going to vacuum and I’m going to dump a dishwasher and I’m gonna, you know, I’m going to take care of the kids. Like, and they expect that the sex would be reciprocated. Now this has done in a million other things. This is just the easiest one. And probably the biggest miss for guys is because, you know, as you being a therapist and talking to a lot of men, what do men complain about? Hey, I’m, I’m married and my wife doesn’t put out.

Brad Singletary (00:09:53):
We have a great relationship except we never touch each other.

Steve Edwards (00:09:56):
Yeah. Because I’m, she’s absolutely disgusted by me. Sounds awesome.

Brad Singletary (00:10:00):
Well, she’s probably not disgusted by your beer gut. She’s probably not disgusted by your morning breath. She’s probably disgusted that you’ve emasculated yourself and you’ve given your handed your balls away to someone or to her maybe. And you’re, you’re not making your own needs a priority. I probably used to say this kind of thing about you’re the center of my world. You’re everything to me in that kind of stuff. When I hear that now, or I see that anywhere, I just cringe and I go, oh, please do don’t. Don’t don’t, don’t, don’t be like that because that’s not going to work out very well. And women are not very interested actually in being the center of your world. If you’re the, if they are the center of your world, that means your world isn’t very freaking exciting. I’m going to lose respect for you, man. They just, they’re not going to have much interest in you. And it doesn’t matter how you look or how much money you have. If you’re overly focused on making your partner happy, none of you are going to be happy.

Steve Edwards (00:11:00):
And I think the, as we dig into it here a little bit more, it’s not necessarily the idea of doing a nice thing with, you know, something expected in return. It’s all the other actions that lead up to it. It’s, it’s basically all the steps that have turned you into a nice guy that have made you a disgusting human to your, to your wife, to your significant, other to the female gender, you know, to females in general, you know, in order to be a nice guy in order to protect everybody from everything, you have to be dishonest, you’ve gotta lie. You’ve got to, you know, you can’t be fully transparent because there’s things in life that if you’re totally honest about them, they’re going to hurt somebody’s feelings.

Brad Singletary (00:11:43):
You’re making me think of a, what was that movie? Old School Will Ferrell and they’re in, they go to therapy and they’re like, oh, we’re in the trust tree. We’re in the trust tree. You know, you can say anything, go ahead, open yourself up. And he’s like, oh, I’m imagining what kind of panties you’re wearing to the hot female therapist. And he gets in trouble. And he said, wait a minute. I thought this was, I thought we were in the trust tree. I thought this was safe.

Steve Edwards (00:12:04):
Nope. That’s a great example because guys, guys are so scared to be honest, but you know, because it sounds bad. Nobody wants to be labeled a predator, but guys are certainly more animalistic than women. They definitely think with their wrong head most of the time, and guys are very simple in the fact that like they would trade out a lot of things in order to have sex. I mean, if they could make those contracts, Hey, all dumped a dishwasher for sex. I will run 12 laps around the block for sex. And that’s where it all goes wrong because guys end up running with the wrong brain and they make decisions. And basically the rest of their life is basically decided by these horrible decisions.

Brad Singletary (00:12:54):
Yeah. They’ve got to hide the evidence of their weaknesses. They’ve got to hide their feelings. They’re, they’re loaded with secrets. They’re trying to like be, you’ve mentioned dishonesty. They’re like compartmentalizing, everything.

Steve Edwards (00:13:06):
Manipulation is a big one. You know, again, it’s like using a different term for the same type of thing. But if you’re lying, you’re probably manipulating situations. You’re telling half-truths I was a liar. That was my thing. I like to lie lying was my drug. It was like, you know, if I could just tell a little white lie to protect my own, to, you know, ease the situation. And you know, as everybody’s aware, your lie, catch up to you, your lies bite you in the. And that, that was my, that was my game.

Brad Singletary (00:13:38):
That never, ever, ever plays out well. And it actually causes the thing that we’re trying to avoid. So why do we lie? Why do we manipulate is because we don’t want to lose the other person. We’re just terrified of abandonment, which is a theme that runs throughout this book is we’re so afraid of being abandoned. We’re afraid that if we show any need or have any of our own wants, or we want to go fishing or go on a guys trip or do any of those things that we’re going to be seen as selfish and therefore abandoned. But then we lie in compartmentalize and we’re dishonest. And we have this like covert control, this covert contract stuff that we do. And we ended up losing respect anyway, they become disgusted by that anyway. And we would probably, you know what, man, I’ve heard women here in my office, let’s say, they’re dealing with an affair. The man’s had an affair. Yeah. In 100% of the time she doesn’t obsess about what the, you know, what the girl looked like or how good the sex was or what did he say to her? What she’s hurt by is the dishonesty. And he’s dishonest because he’s afraid of what would happen if she were to find out. So yeah, tons of manipulation and all this is really, there’s a lot passive aggression that goes along with this stuff.

Steve Edwards (00:14:53):
Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, there’s a million different little pieces of this that I think every guy to some degree can look in the mirror and start unpacking some of these characteristics, some of these behaviors. I mean, I don’t know a single guy that I know that hasn’t made a covert contract about something or that, you know, is a hundred percent honest all the time. That’s totally transparent. Cause I mean, even now, even even saying that I’m, you know, a recovering nice guy, this idea of like complete transparency and total honesty is frightening as hell. Yeah. It is. I’m not saying that, you know, it isn’t the right direction and it it’s hard. But the, the other side of it is also very, very challenging. This idea of like lying your way out of situations, lying to, you know, controlling the situation.

Steve Edwards (00:15:48):
I’m, I’m, I’m a controlling guy. I’ve been the boss for a long time. Probably, you know, you take those Myers-Briggs tests. It comes back I’m, I’m a manager type. I am the boss type. So to remove controlling feelings and controlling situations and letting situation, you know, letting situations play out. I remember in a previous relationships, you know they, she would have had a disagreement at work or an argument at, with friends or something like that. All I wanted to do was fix it, or I wanted to take the edge off. I wanted to do anything to create less friction and just trying to remove all the friction from everything that, you know, I think every, what else have we always heard? Like, we don’t want you to solve the problem. We just want you to listen to us. Well, I think all the guys are fixers.

Brad Singletary (00:16:44):
It’s kind of in our nature a little bit.

Steve Edwards (00:16:45):
We’re built to fix it.

Brad Singletary (00:16:46):
One of the things he, one of the things he mentions in the book is that a lot of these nice guys are even attracted to people that they can try to fix protracted to the broken person. Codependency was a term that you used before. Maybe this is maybe this guy has made a multi-million dollar fortune right in this book. And he’s really just describing codependency. I don’t know, but it seems like a lot of those things are common things. Another negative about being a nice guys that we’re swinging back and forth for being nice and not nice. So these guys aren’t always necessarily, you know, nice. And the doormats, sometimes we, we, we let all that stuff build up and it turns into like explosive anger and those kinds of things you ever go to a domestic violence class and the room was full of nice guys.

Steve Edwards (00:17:32):
Yeah. I mean, that’s, you know, I had to had a Google it, but you know, it’s like a narcissistic style of behavior and, and it it’s because it’s so self-serving, and it’s really only built for the interest of the nice guy and not the party around it. It’s like this exchange of, of feeling like you’re going to continue to do these things in exchange. I want to feel a certain way. I want a certain reaction. I want a certain amount of touch or whatever it might be that you’re never left fulfilled. There’s never a fulfillment of like, wow, that worked out. I feel great about it. I should continue to do this. In fact, it’s the exact opposite where you’re constantly left disappointed and that disappointment builds up to resentment and resentment as you’re well aware, you know, in therapy is what ruins relationships guys are just begging for any amount of intimacy, any amount of affection from their significant other. And she’s pulling away even harder because all she’s seeing is the. She’s seeing the lying. She’s seeing the controlling manipulative guy that, yeah, maybe he dumped the dishwasher. Maybe he did this, but then he’s also yelling at me about, about not contributing about not helping about not being an equal member of the, of the family. And it’s like this weird tug of war with yourself, the only person you’re fighting with is yourself.

Brad Singletary (00:18:58):
Yeah. So there’s a lot of sexual problems with this guy. He’s usually extremely dissatisfied. There’s some often sexual dysfunction. So like erectile dysfunction, there’s like inability to orgasm. There’s all kinds of different things that go along with that. Maybe they’ve acted out sexually. Maybe they’re addicted. They have some sexual compulsion. There’s a lot of this is focused around sex. And he talks later in the book, he talks about one of the things that nice guys do is that they settle for bad sex. So they’re settling, always perpetually unhappy with that. Either not able to improve it, recognize their role in it, but you know, the bad boy, he’s not getting a lot of bad. He doesn’t have, he doesn’t have that. And it’s like, what is it about why is that?

Steve Edwards (00:19:49):
Well, because I think, again, not to dumb guys down to just three things, but you know, food, sleeping, sex, but you know, guys are hunters by nature and they definitely are seeking. They’re seeking that sexual relationship. Do they want more than that? Absolutely. A hundred percent. There’s certainly far more to guys than just food, sleeping, sex, but guys are certainly more driven to go get sex. And where I think the word falls apart is when you look at like porn of today, you know, porn on its own is like a next level thing where it’s not even like normal porn anymore. Like who even knew that everybody wanted to just have sex with her steps. I mean, who do that was like the hottest,

Brad Singletary (00:20:35):
Is that what they’re talking about now? I guess I don’t, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t know

Steve Edwards (00:20:40):
No idea, never over what PornHub is like the top fifth or sixth visited the site on the internet. I had no idea. I don’t even know what goes on there. Yes. You know, so the perversion level of like what is even being presented, it’s not even normal consensual sex, like what you’re used to or what normal people, I guess, would be seeking. They’re being exposed to something that isn’t even realistic. So they’re going home or they’re bringing that vibe. If you want to call it to their significant other. And you know, they’re not living up to it. Like everything else in their life, they’re not living up to it. It’s basically a constant feeling of disappointment and the lacking, because you’re not having the sex you want, you don’t have the relationship you want, you know, you’re not getting sex enough or up to the standards that you would want. Your wife has constantly mad at you. It’s this constant letdown. And all it does is build up into a huge, huge fight. And that’s where most of these guys go wrong. And that’s where they end up with domestic violence. That’s where they end up in cheating. That’s where the whole thing starts by alert, spiraling out of control.

Brad Singletary (00:21:50):
Yeah. So like relationship problems, this stuff, you know, goes into careers and people are unfulfilled in their careers and not living up to their potential. But usually when a guy comes to see me here, they’re, they’re coming in talking about their relationship and yes, they may have depression or anxiety. They may have anger or whatever at their core of what I see an 80% of the men that I, that come here, they got nice guy syndrome going on. And by the way, you’ve kind of acknowledged that I got to say that to myself. If you go back to episode one of this show, I talk about that, that in my first marriage, I was a little bit controlling, a little bit pushy and a little bit demanding and so forth. And in my current marriage, I tried to correct that by being super accommodating and turned into the nice guy and that didn’t work either.

Brad Singletary (00:22:37):
So we’ve been going at this 10 or 11 years now, 11 years. And we finally figured some of this out, but it took me. And I guess if she’s listening to this show, maybe she’ll comment in the, in the social media, whether or not this is true, but I feel like I did. And I have a had to just take, get my balls back. Yeah. I want to skip the part about being integrated. I want to come back to that later, but the working paradigm of the nice guys is this, if I can hide my flaws and become what I think others want me to be, then I will be loved. Then I will get my needs met. Then I can have a problem free life. But even when, even though this is effective, they only see one option is to try harder. So we just keep trying. We just keep doing more and more nice things. I hear it all the time, man. I bought her a $12,000 ring for our 12th anniversary. I did all this stuff. I had all these things and made these special trips. And I did all this thing in my I’m just orbiting around her as the center of the universe. It never seems to pay off. I don’t understand it. Why is that?

Steve Edwards (00:23:47):
You know, you’ve got these guys coming into your office and at the point, a lot of the guys are coming into your office. I don’t want to be the cynical guy and say that it’s too late, but you’re definitely, you know, now you’re trying to really fix something that’s broken versus doing a lot of the maintenance work that is required to keep a relationship healthy. And they’re at this point because they’ve basically dropped the ball so far along the way. And you know, not that we, we can’t put any blame on, on women, but when a lot of like the problems that have, I’ve heard, I know you’ve heard that guys are dealing with the blame does come back to the guy because it is such nice guy behavior. So talking about like this idea of like exerting more, being more continuing to you’re going to keep pouring from an empty bucket, into her half full cup.

Steve Edwards (00:24:42):
Right? And you’re trying to fulfill the marriage in ways that are not what she’s asking. So it’s like you even brought up the example of like buy a new car, buy this pay. I can fully admit I’m the guy that always reverts to solve it with money. Well, that doesn’t solve most problems. I mean, it doesn’t solve most relationship problems. You know, your wife has an asking for you to buy her a new bag, to keep her happy. She is asking for you to participate in the relationship, participate in your kids’ lives. Be a good, be a good partner, be a good father, be present, show up. And unfortunately Louis Vuitton doesn’t sell any show up medicine. It’s always a very nice bag, but that doesn’t buy love.

Brad Singletary (00:25:31):
They need you to be a bad-ass that probably has nothing to do with them. You’re not going to wash dishes enough. You’re not going to do these household things enough. It’s not how many diapers you changed. You know, we still need to do those things, but we lose ourselves in the process. When I look at someone who’s divorcing, I ask and I’ve been there before. And so I know that feeling personally, I ask, well, how do you feel about yourself, your own individual kind of walk in life. How are you doing with your own journey? They always say, I’ve lost myself. I don’t even know who I am.

Steve Edwards (00:26:05):
So to touch on that because I got a little left of center of where I wanted to go on this. But you know, the biggest mistake I see is that guys have lost all touch with other guys. Guys don’t have hobbies. They don’t have real male friends. And they don’t. That’s the sort of stuff that keeps you at guy. I don’t want to, you’re not probably needing to go out grunting out in the woods and like burning pallets and stuff like that. And like just screaming from the mountain tops that I am man, but you need male testosterone around you. You need guy friends, you need to, you need have hobbies that are not including of her. You know, you need a life that does not fully encompass her in it. And that’s hard for a lot of guys to hear. You know, that’s hard for a lot of guys that have been in long marriages, 15, 20 years, they’ve lost connections with their wife or I’m sorry with their friends, their only friend is their wife. You know, they’re sitting around saying my best friend is my wife. My, you know, and that’s great. That sounds super sweet, but it’s also kind of scary because if your best friend is your wife, what happens when that don’t work?

Brad Singletary (00:27:18):
Yeah. It seems like the passion fades on, on those kinds of relationships. And that may be a great friendship. That’s good for you, bro. You got a good friend, but are you getting any bl*wjobs?

Steve Edwards (00:27:29):
It’s true. You know, I can already hear the pushback of like, well, don’t you want to be friends with your wife a hundred percent. You definitely want to be friends with your wife. And, but there was a different friendship. I don’t care how close to your wife you are. You have a different conversation with your guy, friends than you do with your wife. And I think that element of, you know, getting out and shooting guns or riding UTVs or going out, being out on the water, going hunting shooting pool, working on cars, any sort of thing that you can do where you get some male testosterone, you have like real male friends and quite honestly open up, start talking like guys are so terrified of like exposing themselves in any sort of weakness. And yet they’re at home just weak as hell, just soft as can be. But God forbid, they let another guy actually know that they’re hurting. That they’re struggling, that they’re going through anything because you know, the machismo is just pouring out of them except at home where it matters.

Brad Singletary (00:28:35):
I asked guys sometimes to draw like a pie chart, draw a circle and divide this pie into the things that you think about the things that you spend your time in time on your concerns in life. And when a guy shows me, you know, it’s, he’s got 70% of his pie chart is his woman. I can already tell. He’s not very happy. He’s not very fulfilled. And, and I just pulled this number out of thin air. But you know, one thing I say is like, what if she was 20% of your life? What if she was a 25% of your life? And maybe the biggest portion, maybe the biggest percentage of that pie of your time and your focus and your energy. But what if you throw some other things in there you need to have beyond the bowling team, you need to go on a golf league. You know, there’s gotta be some kind of connection to life outside of her and your home.

Steve Edwards (00:29:25):
Well, I also, you know, this is a metric that I’ve taken into account is that unless you actually have the five phone numbers to somebody you could call right now and ask them connect, come stay at your house. I need a friend. And maybe that’s even too big of an ask. Do you have five friends that you can call right now and go have a beer with, you know, or go talk to or go stand in their driveway and shoot the. Do you have five people you can do that with? And my guess is it’s like 97% say, no, it sits. They’re being real. It’s, it’s a no,

Brad Singletary (00:29:59):
It’s so wild. That we’re the biggest like consequence of being a nice guys, that you have terrible relationships with women, your romantic relationships are suffering, but the remedy, the cause and the remedy have nothing to do with that woman or that relationship or how you look. It has nothing to do with what’s within the relationship. So much of it has to do with what’s outside of it. There are some dynamics and some interactional things that cause problems. But let’s talk about the making of a nice guy for a minute. What, how do we, how did we become these weak dudes who are just so ultra nice and unhappy?

Steve Edwards (00:30:40):
Fifty, sixty years of being raised by women, your dad went to work. The, you know, the cleavers were the real thing. You know, dad went to work, mom stayed home. Mom raised you. Mom was your first girlfriend. Mom was your first love. Mom was everything. And you know, for a lot of guys is still everything I grew up. I was a mama’s boy. I’m not afraid to admit it. That’s the problem because there hasn’t been, you know, that idea of like being raised by men, going out with men, having that sort of like male testosterone around you, you’ve just, you’ve spent so much time around and being guided by women that you’ve lost a lot of that male edge. You’ve you’ve seen what your mom needs to be happy. You’ve seen like what the male energy looks like, or I’m sorry. The female energy looks like so strongly that it feels like you’re constantly like, man, I should fix this.

Steve Edwards (00:31:37):
I should be a nice guy. I should help out mom more. It’s like all these things that it becomes super unattractive to females. And some of this does go away when you’re dating. You know, when you’re dating, when you’re out hunting for the next girlfriend, there is that edge. You have to be witty. You’ve got to put, put yourself out there. You’ve got to, you know, you’ve got to lead with some testosterone and some masculinity because you’re a tiger and a group of other tigers. If you don’t, if you don’t attack somebody else’s gonna attack. If you don’t have some sort of push in you and that all goes out the window, the second that these guys become in a relationship that they, they find misses, right? They say, I love you immediately. They’re attached it’s codependent. And they’re just pouring themselves into this other person, which feels like the right thing to do, except they’re also pouring all the things that they need into this and not getting it in return.

Brad Singletary (00:32:36):
You mentioned being raised by women. Think about school teachers. So you’re home, mostly with mom, dad’s working late. He’s gone. Now another great example. One of the things that mentioned in the book is that most of these guys were, they either had absent fathers, avoidant, fathers, addicted, fathers, philandering fathers, angry fathers. And so part of it too, is that I want to be anything except like what my dad was. And then mom is trying to program us to like, don’t be that, be a nice boy. She needs you to be kind of her surrogate husband almost. That’s a whole another dynamic. That’s a whole another show. We’ll have to do at some point. But so we’re getting programmed by the schools. We’re getting programmed by in our own homes. Society just kind of wants to water down masculinity. I saw some stuff recently talking about the toxic masculinity idea and that the problem is not masculinity. The problem is the absence of masculinity. Jordan Peterson talks about, if you, if you think a strong man is dangerous, wait till you see what a weak man can do.

Brad Singletary (00:33:38):
If you can’t see that in our society right now, you know, the woke culture, the woke mob cancel culture. The second somebody doesn’t like something they’re, you know, they’re canceling everything and that’s, that’s its own separate topic. But if you don’t think that a correlates, not everybody’s a champion, not everybody can be a winner. Somebody is going to have to lose. Somebody’s going to have to learn a lesson. And I think it’s so prevalent today. I seen that pie chart, you know, where it goes around that circle of like weak man, strong man, you know, like I forget the four quadrants, but how it goes around. And yeah, I think, I feel like we’re in such a weird spot that like, it’s going to be very, very hard for somebody to break the culture of it. But I think at some you can recognize, recognize in your own house with your kids.

Steve Edwards (00:34:28):
I think it’s you, it’s something you can recognize as a man of like tendencies that you’re doing. And I I’ve recommended to everybody to read the book. The book is amazing. The book I feel like is a game changer. And the second, once you start reading it, you’re like, oh my God, I do that. I do that. Look at this. I do that. These are all like things that you can start seeing in yourself that you’re doing that have a huge difference in your overall happiness and wellbeing. And to the idea of like these teachers, these moms, all of this, you know, you can’t blame your mom for raising you the way she, you did. But at a certain point, the accountability of like why your relationships aren’t working. You do have to be able to look at a mirror and say, Hey, these are probably some of the negative traits that I’m presenting in this relationship. And if I can find out how to be a better version of myself, maybe I ended up with a better relationship.

Brad Singletary (00:35:24):
So I want to ask about something personal here. Tell me some of your worst, nice guy. Give me some stories.

Steve Edwards (00:35:33):
Oh man. I just, I was such a nice guy and I mean, I’m sure of my two ex-wives. They would love to chime in and pour into this bucket. But you know, I was, I was manipulative. That was definitely a good one. I was gaslighting king. I could Gaslight the out of a situation, you know, because, cause you don’t want to look in the mirror. You don’t want to take any ownership of it. So it was like, that’s why it’s on you. It’s not me. This is your feelings like this. And you know, I was, I, I think I wrote the chapter on the covert contract. I was the guy of like, oh, let me dump the dishwasher. Let me help with laundry. Oh, I’m going to vacuum. I’m going to do all this that you never asked me to do anyways. But I really expect some sex out of this at the end.

Steve Edwards (00:36:19):
And yes, I never got any sex. It was like, it was like, that was, it’s so dumb looking back on it because it all makes sense. It all makes sense. And now hindsight looking back, you know, this could have all been solved, you know, not happy to say it, but I have two divorces under my belt and the second one hit me pretty hard. The second one was rough. And when I’m looking at them now, I mean, I was as mad as I wanted to be at them. I, I have to take a lot of ownership. I was a pretty weak man. I was definitely not the best version of myself. I had every nice guy tendency that you could write and you know, and already led to resentment. It led to argument after argument about not having sex in our relationship, it led to fights about like, you know, doing stuff together or why isn’t this good enough? Why isn’t that good enough? And it makes for a miserable life

Brad Singletary (00:37:19):
For me, some of those things for sure, but to add to that, my own problems with this in relationships, I was kind of the simp, you know, I was like, I was writing poetry. I literally was just trying to be like, Mr, let me, let me do that for you. Let me do everything for you. Totally. The covert contract, like, man, let me just show you what a stud I am. And, and even, you know, I took pride in my, in my vulnerability. I could talk about my feelings. You know, I’m a sensitive guy and let me show you my sensitivity. Let me be this. Ah, it’s just disgust me now to think about it. And, and I, part of that was just it’s who I am. And I needed to kind of toughen up and get a backbone like you talked about, but also just not trying to show off. I mean, I remember one time I wrote this really long Facebook posts on my wife’s page just to like how wonderful and beautiful she is and all this stuff, bro. She deleted it. I’ve never done that again, man. I’ll I’ll, I’ll, I’ll be the guy who I would get her like I’ll buy a $7 card for Valentine’s day and put love you. He like, I can’t, I won’t even say, I love you. I’ll be saying love you, you know, not hard to draw the heart to heart and that’s it sign my name, you know, I’ll put B instead of Brad.

Steve Edwards (00:38:41):
So my biggest runaway with us, I didn’t actually discover this until I was going through the second divorce. So how mine actually sprung on me was like, it was, you know, we grew apart and I was really not playing the right cards. I was playing the game entirely wrong. And you know, when, when she was ready to call it and she wanted a separation and that’s where it started, all of a sudden I went into my F you know, fight or flight. And I did exactly that. I was like writing, like the longest, most heartfelt texts you’ve ever seen in your entire life. Like literally just total samp, total, oh my that’s disgusting. It’s like gross. I mean, I look back and I’m like, and that was some real pathetic behavior. And you know, all she wanted was space. She was like, Hey, I just need some time could not give her time.

Steve Edwards (00:39:36):
Time was like the most impossible thing. And if you anybody’s like Google, you start, they, they have a thing like 30 days of no contact. We’ll think about that for a second 30 days. Not talking to your significant other when she doesn’t like you and you’re trying to make up with her. It’s the hardest thing I’ve ever tried in my life. But to that, I mean, there’s a lesson to be learned about that. I mean, the lesson is in the time it’s in this idea of like being so insecure in your own skin, that you’re not deserving of love, that you’re not deserving of happiness in your relationship. A lot of this book passes all the blame down to guys, and I’m a strong believer. Like I want to own my. I want to own it all the way through, you know, it’s way too hard to kick the can down the street to somebody else.

Steve Edwards (00:40:27):
But there is an element. It’s two people in a relationship. And if you were strong in your own background or in your own backbone, and you saw how this played out and you were being a man, you would have never dealt with any of the anyways. You know, if she isn’t providing, if she isn’t pulling her into the, you know, end of the deal, you’re being a man you’re helping, you’re contributing. You’re being this good dude without being a nice guy. You’re not going to be in a relationship that fulfills you like that. You know, not every relationship is meant to last forever. Maybe you’re with the wrong person, but if you’re good with you, that don’t matter. And that I think is the hardest thing for people to wrap their head around.

Brad Singletary (00:41:10):
Yeah. So our value, we see our value, our like human value, our value as a man is all wrapped up in how we’re being treated and like sex is that’s the ultimate evidence of being accepted. And when we don’t get that and we don’t get the time or attention or whatever we used to, we get into this like existential panic. You don’t want to talk to me. You don’t want to touch me. You don’t to spend time with me. I am nothing. Well, that is going to just escalate. That’s going to just devolve even more and more and more you’re spiraling down. And this going to end in total heartbreak. That’s what, that’s what happened to me for sure.

Steve Edwards (00:41:48):
No, and I mean, it’s easy to say it from standing, you know, sitting outside of it now and having gone through it. When I was going through it, I was a puddle of goo. I was, you know, I, I was soft as hell. I, there was nothing about me that was man. I felt like I was, you know, being a simp. And that was like the awakening that I needed to do some real self work. Cause I didn’t have, I didn’t have five people in my phone. I could have called to spend the night at their house or to go grab a beer with, I had me and my own depression and my own, my own negative beliefs about myself, not believing that I was good enough. And that’s where it starts and ends is like, you have to believe that you’re worthy of the love and affection that you need to be happy in a relationship. And the hard part, the talking out of both sides of my mouth on this is that you might be in this relationship with somebody that is not fulfilling your needs. And at a certain point, you have to be able to draw a line in the sand and say, I’m not getting what I need out of this relationship and be okay with the outcome because you know, you’re not happy. And that’s hard to say,

Brad Singletary (00:42:59):
I want to talk about this list of habits of highly ineffective men. Number one, looking for the approval of others, trying to conceal our apparent blemishes, you know, our mess up our mistakes, putting other’s needs in front of our own sacrificing our own power. I like this one too. This is what you’re talking about. This associating ourselves from different guys and our own manly energy. We’re totally disconnected. You’re let me say this loud and clear for you guys. Your most unhappy moments in your life have come or will come when you are the most disconnected from other men. Nope. That’s crazy. You’re most unfulfilled, unhappy times in your life will or have come when you are most disconnected from other men. So we make connections with women that aren’t fulfilling. We’re creating the circumstances. Co-Creating the circumstances for bad sex failing to live up to our own potential. So if we’re going to fix this stuff, we got to look at Glover talks about being integrated, being an integrated man. So what does it mean to be integrated?

Steve Edwards (00:44:16):
And integrated man, as somebody who is comfortable in their own skin? One of the biggest mistakes or one of the hugest problems with this nice guy is this belief that they’re not good enough. And this w this need for acceptance by everybody. You know, a lot of people say, I don’t care what other people think, but we all know that that’s a lie and that’s actually became even worse as time’s gone on where our entire culture and civilization is ran by, you know, fake Instagram and, you know, seeing everybody’s life. That seems amazing. Everybody’s beyond happy, but actually everybody’s really sad and depressed and going through a lot. And you know, they’re dealing with things and they have mental health issues. And at a certain point, you have to just believe that you’re okay, that you’re okay as you are. And your people will love you regardless. And that’s hard for people to say,

Brad Singletary (00:45:14):
Yeah, we’ve got to make our own needs important. We need to find people who can meet our needs when you’re integrated, you can live in some, with some confidence.

Steve Edwards (00:45:27):
And I think this all, I think this is the big takeaway for all of this is like, you have to just figure out how to be good with you. Like this idea of masculinity and like, you know, I don’t think you need to be this super machismo Dick. That’s what a lot of people hear is like No More Mr. Nice guy is that they have to turn this around and they’ve got to be this non-caring Dick we’re. In fact, actually, you know, somebody who is an integrated, truly good guy that gets what he’s doing. That’s a good man is caring. He’s probably way more caring, but he also recognize the difference between caring and care taking your job is not to solve everybody’s problems. But that doesn’t mean you don’t care. I have struggled with empathy for a very long portion of my life, of not being a very empathetic person.

Steve Edwards (00:46:23):
And I thought it just actually meant that I didn’t care, but where I got confused in this are where my mistake was made is that I felt empathy was also me having to solve the problem. I always had to have a solution to a problem versus just understanding that there was a problem. Sometimes you just gotta listen, you gotta just be able to hear that, okay, this is what’s wrong. This is what I don’t like. This is what makes me unhappy. Or this is what is making somebody unhappy and be okay in just, Hey, I hear what you’re saying. I hear what your problem is and leave it at that. You’re not in business to solve everybody’s problems.

Brad Singletary (00:47:05):
Yeah. We got to just deal with things in a straightforward way, learn to experience and express our feelings. We need to just find harmony with the, the delicate things of life. And another thing he talks about is that you build significant relationships with men. I always say the womanizer needs men, not women

Steve Edwards (00:47:27):
Or womanizer does need. And you know, the other thing is just being transparent about your wants and needs. He, covert contract will be the death of like, it will be the death of many marriages. And it has up to this point. And you know, because we’ve touched on the sex portion of it, this has to be a clear and present thing of what you’re in need of in this relationship. Maybe you’re not going to go and just say, Hey, I need more sex. I need more intimacy in my relationship and immediately get it. It’s not as if you’re going to go walk to her and be like, Hey, I definitely need more sex. And she’s like, you know what? You’re right. Let’s go, you know, you’re, this is a work in progress. And you’re going to have to work these steps to get to a spot of her trusting that your not going to be this passive aggressive guy, that your going to be the best version of yourself that you’re going to show up, that you’re going to listen. And in return, the end goal is that she will be able to be the best feminine version of herself, which is in return, is going to reflect on a better sex life, a better partner and a better relationship.

Brad Singletary (00:48:39):
Yeah. We got to face our fears. We need to become trustworthy and genuine. We’ve got to set limits. I think an integrated man is able to say, no, that’s something that I’ve struggled with. You talked about empathy, something I’ve struggled with is going along to get along, giving to get. He talks about that a lot in the book, you give something to get something back in return. So when you move come integrated, we’re not afraid. We’re not even afraid of losing the relationship. Think of the things that we do, the bonehead things that we do to try to save a relationship. We’re trying to force someone to let us stay at the party that no one wants us at. And I think if we can get to the point where like, it would be inconvenient, but I’m not, as I’m not scared to be alone,

Steve Edwards (00:49:31):
You know, it’s a, it is that fear of abandonment. It is that major fear of abandonment and whoa, what if nobody ever loves me again, somebody is going to love you again. You know, when you’re the best version of yourself when you’re showing up, when you’re caring, when you’re, when you’re that guy that was outdating, your you’re putting off, it’s a different energy. You care different. You know, you, you see that you’re, you’re in this. What happens when guys start going through breakups or in the gym, they’re working on themselves, they’re eating better. They’re doing basically everything that their spouse asked them to do in the relationship, just after the relationship

Brad Singletary (00:50:12):
That would’ve made everybody a lot happier. If they were just taking care of themselves, he talks a lot about that. And if we want to turn this around, he specifically talks about building muscle and like working out and becoming physical.

Steve Edwards (00:50:26):
Yeah. You know I, I saw it earlier and I, and I love this term as this I, and I’m going to read it. A lot of people say, I love hard instead of saying I’m codependent, lack boundaries, and become borderline obsessed with a person I’m interested in because of my anxious attachment style and fear of abandonment. But yeah, I love hard. Does sound better. I heard that. And I’m like, man, I, I feel that I get it because everybody gets in these relationships and you get in a relationship. And at first it’s like the greatest feeling ever you’re. So in love, you’re ugly. It’s oh my God, I can’t even imagine my life without them. And then like the real life sets in. And like, you have the same problems everybody else does. And relationships are hard when you’re not having sex with each other.

Steve Edwards (00:51:16):
You know, you with work with friends, with relationships, take a lot of work. And then when you add kids in the mix, you had a relationship, you had money. It’s a, it’s an uphill battle. The entire way we all have wants, needs, desires, that sort of thing. But we’re so afraid of just expressing our feelings, expressing how we feel, you know, what we need out of this relationship to be successful. You know, we’re terrified, terrified of the, what if it doesn’t work. And because what if, if it doesn’t work means you’re a failure. It means you’re not worthy of love. It means you’re not, you know, all these things you tell yourself, it means you’re never going to be with somebody else again. So instead you just pour the nice guy on like, it’s, you know, the thickest you’ve ever seen. It just thick country gravy.

Steve Edwards (00:52:07):
And you end up in a situation where you’ve got everything that you didn’t want. You’re not loved. You’re unhappy. You’re not getting, you know, you don’t have the sex. You want it. You don’t have the relationship you want and your partner checked out. And now you’re sitting in front of Brad and you’re wondering like, how does, how the hell did I get here? And how do I get out of this? And the unfortunate part is a lot of times, once you’ve gotten in front of Brad, it’s too late, too little, too late, myself included. Once you’re in front of Brad is too little too late. You can choose to solve it. Today is an overnight fix handle. No, there’s no overnight fix behind this. You’re not going to read this book and go home. And all of a sudden be this well adjusted mail. But if you don’t take some action, if you don’t find a reason to go out with the guys, if you don’t have any guy friends, you got to start somewhere. You’ve got to start. You gotta take that turtle step forward to take some action, to get to a better place, because otherwise it all unravels. And then, then you’re sitting on a podcast three years later talking about being a well adjusted male or so, whatever the hell that means some adjustments in the mail, the integrated mail. I’m sure if you have somebody there’s no well-integrated anything about this, but on, at work in progress,

Brad Singletary (00:53:27):
I think that’s important. We, he talks about you would need to please the person who matters the most. And that sounds a little selfish, but if we’re talking about coming out of nice guy syndrome, we gotta, we got to shift the balance a little bit more that way, because by trying to please everyone, nice guys end up pleasing, no one, including themselves. We see sex as the ultimate form of acceptance. And when our woman gets angry or upset, we think we, we start to panic like, oh, I got to do something quick, quick, quick, quick, how do I fix this? I need a lie. I need to manipulate. I’m going to offer some ideas. Here’s let me appease you in some way. And if we can just learn this, be okay with that little wave, that little emotional wave and just not feel like we’ve got to prevent her from feeling angry or upset. Because when we do that, when we’re rushing to some quick action, some urgency it’s based on, like you said, the fear of abandonment is based on, I am nothing without you. And that’s just. That’s going to lead you to pain.

Steve Edwards (00:54:30):
I always, every time, every single time that is going to lead you to pain. And it’s just not the case. I mean, are you the best version of yourself right now? No. Am I absolutely not. I’m sitting here and I’ve been losing the same 50 pounds for the last 15 years. It’s hard work. It’s hard work. And I think a lot of it all starts in the head. I think it’s the, you know, the embarrassment of mental health. I think it’s the guys being like, oh, well, how am I going to go talk to somebody about my feelings and of all the things you should do of all the places you should put money. Maybe you need to go see a therapist. Maybe you need to go talk to your friends. Maybe you actually have to have an open dialogue about what’s going on in your life. And this is where I think a lot of the mistake has made

Brad Singletary (00:55:19):
When we’re in the nice guy syndrome. We kind of feel like we’ve got to hide any of our shortcomings. Think about hair loss and stuff like that. And now we’re both sitting here now, both sitting here, bald guys who proud and true.

Steve Edwards (00:55:32):
You asked me if I was five foot taller and 50 pounds lighter me and me and the rock, same cap. Same.

Brad Singletary (00:55:41):
So yeah, any mistakes where we think about, you know, we don’t, we don’t wanna, we don’t want anyone to know that we farm. We don’t want to have any perfect imperfection of any kind. And so to be okay with that, stop lying, stop putting up walls. You know, people are not drawn to our perfection. Something that I’ve learned as a therapist is in the textbooks. You know, they say not to self-disclose, don’t tell your own stories to your clients. And I’ve really kind of always been a little patch Adams like with that stuff, I just do whatever works. And for me, what seems to work is in small little doses, I tell people about my into jail, but in a psych hospital, been suicidal, took psych meds, been divorced, got ex-communicated from Metro. I tell all those things. And everybody’s like, dude, I like that about you.

Brad Singletary (00:56:29):
I’m glad that you shared that. And I think the same is true of women. We think we’ve got to be perfect to win their acceptance. That’s probably not very good. I hear some women say sometimes he’s actually the perfect husband. Well, why did you cheat on him? Why are you leaving him? Why are you, why is this so perfect? He’s so perfect. And that’s a lot of pressure and it’s a lot to live up to. And I feel like there’s some inauthentic thing about that. So we don’t have to be perfect. What we have to do is get our needs met and do that with some integrity.

Steve Edwards (00:57:00):
This’ll be Billy put out, I’m sure, but it’s that putting the on the pedestal, it’s raising this belief that women are perfect, that women are without flaw and that your, just this piece of meat that she accepted into her life and you bring her no value. I mean, I think that’s where a lot of this self doubt and this disbelief in yourself that you’re deserving of love. I don’t know. Like I think that this is a lot of this has to start inside. This has to start in your own head. This is your own self-worth. And if you have something about you that you don’t like change it, make the change, do the work. If you’re like, oh my God, I’m such a fat obese sack, a shoes. Well, maybe you go to the gym maybe instead of sitting around. And like, if you don’t believe in yourself, maybe you take these changes. I have a mantra that I live by and I think it’s the greatest piece of advice. You either go after the life you want, or you settle for the life, you get hands down, full stop. The only thing you change everything about yourself. You want to be a billionaire, great. Do the work you want to be, you know, you want abs, you want to be ripped. You want the best life possible. Do the work. And if you don’t do the work, then you have to accept what you got.

Brad Singletary (00:58:20):
Yeah. Sometimes when we’re trying to be appear low maintenance. So like, if I, if I don’t have any needs, if I don’t have any way to grow, if I don’t have any imperfection, no one’s gonna abandon me. I want to dig into that covert contracts again, real quick. So basically that is to say, I will do blank so that you can do blank for me. I will do whatever. I’ll do this thing for you so that you can do this thing for me. But both of you act like no one is aware of the contract.

Steve Edwards (00:58:50):
You know, again, we can’t speak for women. We don’t have any women’s setting hair or anything like that, but it’s every guy does it. I mean, you know, they’re probably doing it and they don’t even know they’re doing it. But the, the most popular is always regarding around sex. You know, they on running joke for as long as everybody’s been alive is like the second you get in a marriage, you know, there goes a sax, right? Well, these guys that are in these relationships, he’s sexless, unhappy relationship. You know, that sex didn’t go away overnight and it didn’t go for a way, for any reason, something happened, something stopped, pushed her away where she stopped having sex with you. And maybe it was your lying. Maybe it was you not paying attention. You know, that phone that you’re sitting in there in your hand or the video game controller in front of you maybe you got to put it down, put a little pay, little attention and you know, I’ve had to drink my own.

Steve Edwards (00:59:41):
Kool-Aid on that. I’m the, I’m the worst. Like I worked all the time. I always was on my phone. I’d be sitting and watching TV and on my phone and just like not paying attention. So when she stopped having sex with you at a certain point, you have pull up in the mirror what happened? And it’s two to the covert contract side. It’s this artificial like made up. If you do this, I’m going to give you this. And for guys that’s sex, like I said, it’s the chores. It’s the date night. It’s the, any, any little gesture that should be commonplace in the relationship. Oh, I went and got your wheel changed in your car. Oh, I did this. And it’s like, you laugh at that. I was like, oh, I went and got your oil change. We should probably have sex without

Brad Singletary (01:00:25):
You mentioned, you mentioned the date night. I heard a guy in, one of my men’s groups recently was talking about how he took his wife out to this fancy dinner. They were all dressed up. They bought a bunch of expensive wine and all these things. And he, his whole thing was like, oh boy, when we get home, it’s going down. And it didn’t go down because she’s half buzzed. It’s midnight 30. You know, she’s been up with the kids since five in the morning and she’s tired. And she wanted to get down the next morning when they woke up. And he was all sorts of butt-hurt because I spent $600 on you on this date. And I didn’t even get any so needs are normal. We’ve got to accept that our needs are normal, but we need to talk about those indirect ways.

Steve Edwards (01:01:10):
I’m I’m done that. I’ve done. I’ve like, that could have been me. I I’m I’m that guy that you just told a story about there. I mean, I I’ve, I’ve done it when I planned a big night and we went out to a show and a fancy dinner and we were staying at the Cosmo and it was, I mean, rolled out the red carpet. And then when we got back to the hotel, she’s like, I’m tired. I’m not feeling this. And like a little bit, I’m just like, what are you going to have sex? You they’re going to have sex. I, you know, and those ruined, and then you’re having guilt sex, which is gotta be worse. It’s almost as bad as no.

Brad Singletary (01:01:45):
Oh, it’s worse. Cause it’s building resentment and they they’re just turned off, checked out. There’s nothing intimate at all about that. Earlier, we talked about the difference between caring and caretaking and there was a cool action step in the book. Here’s one of the things that he suggests, he says, stop giving completely for a week, stop doing any care-taking completely for a week. Don’t do anything that you normally do for a week and notice how you feel and how people react

Steve Edwards (01:02:12):
When you say that out loud. And like, guys are going to hear this. Like, you know how absurd that sounds right.

Brad Singletary (01:02:18):
It sounds absurd. He says, but there’s a followup to it. But he says, all right, notice how you feel and how people react when you give nothing. And then he said, after that, then caretake more than you normally do. So go all aboard, all overboard, caretaking, checking in, making sure they have everything, give them everything they ever wanted and then notice how you feel and how people react. And I think I want to try this. So

Steve Edwards (01:02:41):
Without imploding a relationship, do all of this without imploding your relationship.

Brad Singletary (01:02:47):
I think the idea is it’s really trying to get us out of the habit of the covert contract. And just to sometimes I’m sitting around like, okay, you had a shower. I had a shower I’m guess guests. This means maybe we can do this now. You know? And, and I noticed that most of those times disappointed, but when I got to do and it’s like, oh babe, no, I got, I got something going on. I got it. I gotta go. I gotta meet up with Steve over the office to record a podcast. Like that’s when it’s like, I’m being pulled back in to like, whoa, before you leave. And there’s some crazy goes down in two and a half minutes in the closet, you know what I’m saying?

Steve Edwards (01:03:26):
And how does it like, I mean, isn’t that the way you’ve dreamed about it being isn’t that the like fun that needs to be injected into it. I know a lot of guys, if they even had to go to the idea of like scheduling it, because now when you’re an adult and you got kids in the house, you got all this, let’s be real. That sex is going to go away. It’s not going to be like, when you’re freshly dating, no kids and no adult responsibilities or no, like, like, yeah, that’s amazing. And then it all goes away and guys are like, Hey, what happened? Do what happened when we were 22 and things were amazing. And we had unadulterated I don’t know if you want to call it like young kids, sex, college kids sex. I don’t think that that’s I think

Brad Singletary (01:04:09):
That that’s in the car, like that kind of stuff,

Steve Edwards (01:04:12):
Car sex. Now I just, now that practical dad, adult side of me is like, why would we do that? Like, why don’t we like, you know, we have a fully functioning bed, right? Like, God, what if I get a leg cramp? God, I, I even, we should delete that portion out. Cause we ain’t going to be terrible. Nobody wants to hear about like, why Steve doesn’t want to have car sex too old for this.

Brad Singletary (01:04:38):
My favorite lines in the, in the, in the, I was gonna say the movie, they should probably make a movie about this. But in the, in the book is helpless. Whiny, wimpy, and needy men are not attractive. Not at all. He says, put yourself first. It shows confidence. And that is what attractive you’ll feel anxious and guilty at first. But if you can just put yourself first, do what you want to do and do nothing that you don’t want to do. Now, some guys are going to hear this and go to say, oh, well, when I go to church, they tell me I need to serve and love and sacrifice. Well, yeah, if you’re an ego driven person, who’s only selfish and completely, some, sometimes people need to forget themselves and kind of, there’s two ideas. One guy says the king eats first and the other guy says the king eats last. And which one is it? And I think it’s both depending on which you’ve been typically in the past, if you’re a nice guy, I think the king eats first.

Steve Edwards (01:05:34):
Well, and this isn’t a game of absolutes, right? Like this is not something I think that you can just go full, stop on it tomorrow. And you’re going to just have a happy life. In fact, I think you’re going to end up with a more off life than you have. Now. I think that this is something you have to recognize inside of yourself. A big takeaway for me would be the recognizing of the covert contract. I think that that’s the most easy place for a guy to start recognizing the little things that you’re trading off with the expectation of something in return. Start there, stop doing it, stop expecting anything. And maybe then you’re going to stop volunteering to do some of these tasks that I’m not saying don’t help around the house. Cause I feel like that’s like an implosion waiting to happen too. But I think you’ve got to approach us with a different energy, a different mindset and quit trying to horse trade stuff with

Brad Singletary (01:06:31):
Horse trade. I like that. I like that idea.

Steve Edwards (01:06:33):
Yeah. I, you know, it’s like this, this just, it’s a trade. It’s a trade and guys are w and it would be one thing that even if you said it, like, Hey, I’m going to do all these chores. And in return, I would like to have sex. And she says, yes, sir, do you accept this deal? These terms? And she said, yes, that’d be great, but it’s always happening without being said. And then it’s just leading to disappointment. So I think you got to take baby steps, read the book, read the book again and probably read it two or three, four more times. Cause I’m, I’m a like 10 times deep because it’s a huge mindset thing. This is a mindset change.

Brad Singletary (01:07:11):
Yeah. I think you’ve made a good point about this. This can’t happen overnight. Generally. This is just a general idea about the timeframe for change. I think it takes a month for every year that you’ve been dysfunctional. So w our average listener is about a 40 year old man. And if he’s been doing this since he was a child, you know, since he was a boy, he has been, he’s been a nice, nice guy since he was a boy, because he was trained to be that way. So he’s been doing it for 30 years. Been a nice guy. It may take you 30 months of therapy. Men’s groups talking with dudes about this, really getting control of yourself, getting your balls back. It might take you a month for every, yeah. So think of you’re on a three-year plan to get your balls back and we can help you with that stuff if you reach out to us. But yeah, it’s not going to happen overnight, and don’t go do some sudden crazy things, but in reclaiming your personal power, he talks about considering and accepting your gifts. You got to find some things to be proud of. You got to look in the mirror and see something that you like and be able to acknowledge that with yourself and the people you’re around and project a reality that we,

Speaker 3 (01:08:24):
I, I love this. I love this point. Like this, I think is a, I lead with a lot of self-confidence where it comes from. I’m not totally sure. Maybe it’s all a lie, but I have it. Okay. A lot of the guys I talked to, there’s such this belief, this self belief that they’re not deserving of better. And if you don’t believe you deserve better than what you have, how do you ever get it? How do you, how do you demand that? How do you demand more from others? If you don’t even think you deserve it? And of all the things of all the topics that one hurts me the most, because there’s a lot of guys that are in unhappy relationships and you know, maybe it isn’t a woman may, you know, but they’re, but they’re not taking any action. And all they’re going to do is they’re going to keep going down the same path, because it is the path of least resistance, because it’s easier to be unhappy in a relationship with your wife and you know, your kids than it is to break up, get divorced, you know, have shared custody, lose half your money, or lose your money and, you know, start all over and still be this weak man, because you don’t deserve, you don’t think you deserve better.

Steve Edwards (01:09:40):
In fact, now your self-worth has even less guys really have to do this. Some of the self works, you know, look in the mirror. What do you deserve? Why do you deserve it? What are you doing to be the best possible version of yourself? The way at the exercise? The self appearance is a big portion of it. The idea of like, when you start dating somebody, all of a sudden you become attractive to other females. We’ve all heard that. And when you’re single, all of a sudden, you’re basically chopped liver and nobody wants you. Well, it’s because you pull off that like thirsty vibe when you’re single, you’re needy, you want, you know, you’re wanting of love of others and it comes off as weakness versus masculinity and confidence and self-belief, and when you’re in a relationship and you feel like you’re in a S you know, those first three, six months of a relationship, when you feel like man, I’m on top of the world, I’m in this great relationship. I’ve got this girl by my side, you know, that’s that kind of like, that’s that toxic max masculinity. That’s the stuff that pours out of you that feels like you’re conquering the world. And then you let life kick you in the nuts a little bit. And all of a sudden you become this weak version of yourself again.

Brad Singletary (01:10:52):
Wow. So interesting. So true. We kind of project a reality that we want to see happening on to things. And even if it’s not real. So one of the interesting concepts in the book that, that shocked me a little was it talked about, we are trying to be monogamous to our mothers. And the way I read that was we kind of maybe unconsciously sabotage things so that we can really stay true to our first girlfriend. And that’s a very fruity and in nature, but I think it’s true to some degree. So let me go ruin every relationship so that I can get back to my mom or to this in the archetypical sense. This is the ideal love or whatever. I let me ruin this so that I can be comforted and be, you know, go back to this idealistic thing, whether your mom is alive or not. I want to go back to this ideal of unconditional love. I have a client who complains that his wife, you know, says, oh, we need to have unconditional love. And he tells me, and I believe it. The only unconditional love that exists is from God and from your mom and dad and, and no spouse, you know, because we’ve seen it. We’ve been through these situations where we love you when this is going well, when you start doing that now, I don’t love you anymore. It’s not, can’t be on a conditional only for your children.

Steve Edwards (01:12:08):
Unconditional love is such a weird concept too, of like, I mean, would you expect your parents to still love you if you were Jeffrey Dahmer or, you know, if you’re some crazy serial killer. And I know I don’t feel like I’m deep enough to wrap my head around this whole idea of like being faithful to your mom. I think it comes to this idea that you’re you do, you know, your parents are vital to your mom was in the picture for so long. And a lot of guys are mama’s boys. I was a mama’s boy. I am a mama’s boy. I see my mom a lot. And it’s, you know, you always hear the female saying like, you know, the mom is just too up in our business. You know, they, you can’t stand up to your mom because it’s your mom. You can’t say no to your mom. There’s no ability to push back. And, and over time that that almost feels like it’s how guys end up in relationships too, where they just can’t, they can’t be truthful. They can’t follow through, but you know, this idea of being faithful to your mom, I don’t know. I’m sure there’s a truth to it. I just it’s deeper than me, buddy.

Brad Singletary (01:13:15):
So he’s part of it is he saying that, you know, we are dependent on the approval of women. And so mom is just kind of the archetype of pure love and the, and the love that never goes away and that kind of thing. And so we’re, we become dependent on women. And if we’re talking about trying to take back our power and take back our masculinity, one of the things it talks about in there is we have this belief that we’re different from other men. I’m not the abusive, angry guy. I’m the sensitive, caring, caretaking person. And, and that actually disconnects us from other men, which is part of the problem. I love his definition of masculinity. He says, masculinity is basically what, whatever helps us in survival. So it’s our strength. It’s our ability to strategize. It’s our ability to fight. It’s our ability to protect and those types of things. But since say like the sixties, you know, we’ve kind of distanced ourselves from aggression. And so, but we still noticed that women are attracted to jerks.

Steve Edwards (01:14:16):
It’s like you better off. If everybody just needs to go buy themselves a Fonzie jacket and have a little bit of that. Yeah. I mean, but there is that element girls are attracted because that cause that jerk also spews confidence, whether it’s fake or not. Because I think that there’s a real level of fake confidence that goes with it. But that’s, I think where the attraction comes from is they’re looking for a leader. They’re looking for a guy who can take charge and have a strong backbone and it isn’t going to, or isn’t going to roll over. I think that’s where it comes from is that women are attracted to a bad boy or to this bad guy, because it’s everything they’ve been told that like, they shouldn’t find the nice guy, get the banker, go to go marry the guy. That’s going to raise the kids. Right. And go to work and come home and love you. And it’s like, but everybody’s so unfulfilled by that. Everybody’s so unfulfilled because nobody’s really talking about what they want. Even the woman in this, the woman isn’t saying, this is what I want, need to be happy. She’s just going with the flow too. Because if you don’t talk about it, it’s not really an issue.

Brad Singletary (01:15:27):
Yeah. Most women don’t want a man that who’s trying to please them. They want a man with balls.

Steve Edwards (01:15:32):
Oh yeah. A hundred percent. They want, each woman that could mean different things. That doesn’t mean you actually have to go out and like fight bowls or like jump, jump dirt bikes, or do any of these things, but you’ve gotta be comfortable in your own skin. And that’s hard. I think it’s hard for, you know, for guys to be like, this is who I am. This is the man. I want to be, I like golf. I like cars or dirt bikes or whatever it is. And just having a passion, like, what are you passionate about outside of your wife, outside of your kids? And that’s where I think a lot of guys lose all their happiness. You know, they give it away because it’s like, now I’m an adult. I don’t have any hobbies because I am a dad because I am married. It’s like, well, what were you interested in? You know, you used to maybe ride a skateboard or you used to like play baseball. Maybe you need to be on the softball team. Maybe you need to go play softball once a week. Or, you know, I’m not advocating for you to go on drinking with the boys, but you know that Saturdays are for the boys. Maybe you need a Saturday. Maybe you need, yeah. You’ve got to really find a way to like talk with the guy.

Brad Singletary (01:16:45):
Yeah. So true man. I was so I played college football and the idea of locker room talk and your mama jokes and all that kind of stuff. I was the guy who was offended by all that stuff. And I didn’t even, I never had any comebacks. Literally it took me into well into my adulthood to realize that that’s one of the ways that men bond with each other. And I used to get so offended. My grandfather would always call me like knucklehead, not head, you know, all these things. And I remember crying to my mom. He says, these mean things to me, you know, why does he say that to me? And it took me. I was probably in my twenties before I realized that’s just how guys do and I’ve yeah. That’s ball busting is real. So a Glover talks about, we need to do these four things to reclaim our masculinity, connect with other men, get strong, literally get in the gym, get strong workout, be physically active, have healthy male mentors and connections.

Brad Singletary (01:17:39):
And then look at, look at your relationship with your dad. And that’s something that you might consider doing with the professional, but we’re afraid to upset women because then it means she won’t have sex with us, but he makes a good point that that’s not true with our male friends. We’re not trying to get it on with our homeys. And so we can be real and we can not worry about upsetting them. We can not worry about drama with dudes. You’re less likely to have drama with male friends. And so that’s one of the reasons he says we need to have.

Steve Edwards (01:18:07):
So I know there’s going to be a lot of guys that are thinking like, well, how do I go get guy friends? Well now with the internet, you know, my best friend lives in Florida. Like I talked to him, I talked to him far too often for two males, but he lives in Florida and we talk every day about some, about anything, everything, and anything in between. But nowadays with the internet and Facebook and these different portals, you can find somebody who’s interested in what you’re into. Oh, you’re a weird European stamp collector. Great that guy’s on the internet somewhere. You’re not stuck with this idea that you have to find a friend in your backyard like you used to. But I do think that there is an element of like, you got to get out of the house. You need to find your tribe.

Steve Edwards (01:18:50):
Find those people that you can relate with that are going to check you on your and hold you accountable to your goals. A lot of guys just, they’re not transparent. Transparency being so key to all of this is they’re so afraid to be vulnerable to other men that it’s like when they’re around other men, it’s like a chest beating contest. Like we’re a bunch of gorillas. Have you ever played softball or have you ever hung? So you go to like softball and or whatever you go to hang out with the guys. None of those guys are ever having bad days. None of them are going through divorce. None of their wives are cheating on them or anything like that. Why? Because male, ego is way too high for anybody to ever be vulnerable. You need to find those three to five guys. And maybe it starts with one. Maybe it starts with two, but you need to find people that you can be real open and honest with.

Brad Singletary (01:19:43):
Yeah. Tell him when you’re messing up, tell on yourself, tell him about the problem you haven’t asked for some input. Listen to them.

Steve Edwards (01:19:50):
Find a men’s group. Men’s group is a huge thing. There’s men’s group you can go into and you can be yourself because these are not your friends. They are like-minded individuals, peers that are there to hear your problems and as well as address their problems. And I think that’s a huge step. I think that is such a miss where guys are missing out on is seek some therapy. So you can men’s group be real, like open up and be real about what’s going on in your life.

Brad Singletary (01:20:20):
We want to wrap this up guys. Thank you for being with us, but we’re just going to hit a few points from No More Mr. Nice guy by Robert Glover. Some things that he talks about, that what ways we can do to be integrated and to get our strength back, get our mojo back, get our balls back and have more respect in our relationships. Whether professionally or romantically, let’s just hit a few things here. First of all, I think is have some integrity. Be honest in what you’re saying. Be honest about your feelings, your interactions. Tell the truth.

Steve Edwards (01:20:53):
Yeah, that’s a, I think that’s a great one. Another one is quit being afraid of new experiences or what’s what’s around you. What the world has stopped.

Brad Singletary (01:21:02):
Yeah. Don’t be avoidant of new experiences. I love that. Learn to surrender what you can’t change. That’s one of the big things in alcoholics anonymous, the serenity prayer except the things that you cannot change.

Steve Edwards (01:21:18):
I mean, this next one is an interesting one, because again, it’ll, it’ll trigger some people, but do what you want to do quick, constantly trying to always please other people, make sure you’re taking care of yourself for

Brad Singletary (01:21:31):
Learn how to get help. Ask about help for your feelings. If you’re feeling uncomfortable or guilty about something. Talk about that stuff.

Steve Edwards (01:21:40):
Recognize that that people are human, that people are going to make mistakes, that people are flawed in nature.

Brad Singletary (01:21:46):
Stop trying to be perfect.

Steve Edwards (01:21:48):
Stop seeking approval. And like you don’t need the approval and the external validation from everybody.

Brad Singletary (01:21:54):
Yeah. You got to approve of yourself. Treat yourself to the things that you deserve. Take care of your own needs with integrity.

Steve Edwards (01:22:01):
Stop building such huge walls and let people in.

Brad Singletary (01:22:05):
Don’t try to cover up or take attention away from your weaknesses. Don’t be afraid of your shortcomings.

Steve Edwards (01:22:13):
Be aware or cognizant of your childhood events and some of the conditions or influences that led you to where you’re at today.

Brad Singletary (01:22:21):
Set boundaries. No who to let in who to leave out. Don’t allow yourself to be disrespected or taking advantage of.

Steve Edwards (01:22:29):
There’s a big one on the list, but be clear or start expressing your feelings. Be transparent about what you’re feeling about things.

Brad Singletary (01:22:37):
Spend more time with men. And we’ve talked about that quite a bit. You’ve got to develop your masculine energy,

Steve Edwards (01:22:42):
Recognize that women, they reject nice guys. They see that as weak, recognize that

Brad Singletary (01:22:49):
Learn to be more passionate, more assertive, more responsible, take care of business.

Steve Edwards (01:22:55):
I recognize that you don’t have to do everything right, or you’re allowed to be flawed

Brad Singletary (01:23:01):
And don’t let the fear of failure or the fear of success. Some guys, I think fears success don’t let that keep you away from the things that you want and deserve.

Steve Edwards (01:23:11):
The last I think is don’t settle for mediocrity. Go after the life you want, quit settling. You’re not a Pilgrim.

Brad Singletary (01:23:18):
Make your own rules. There’s a lot of rules out there right now. If they make sense. And if you can jive with that, go for it. But also don’t be afraid to be independent. Don’t be afraid to be, non-compliant do your thing. Get your balls back, guys. We really appreciate you being with us tonight. This is such an important topic. Men must be stronger. And that may, I mean, take a look at your upbringing. That might mean take a look at how you interact covert contracts. We’ve got to turn these things around and what I’ve noticed with myself and with men that I’ve worked with over the last 23 years, when we stand up and allow ourselves to be counted and allow our voice to be heard and be real and genuine and authentic about where we’re at, what our needs are. And we do the things that keep us alive in our spirit. Things just turn out so much better for us. Appreciate you being with us. Steve-O thank you

Steve Edwards (01:24:11):
So much for having me. I hope I come back. I got a lot to talk about.

Brad Singletary (01:24:14):
Yeah, dude, this is good. I feel like we got a good vibe. We get a little slow here, man. I appreciate you being here and we’re definitely happy back, brother. Take care. Thank you. You guys know no excuses, alpha up.

Speaker (01:24:29):
Gentlemen, you are the Alpha and this is the Alpha Quorum.

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